TargetTalk

funtoz wrote:You can have all the things that Rus put in his list and still not have a competitive shooter. Why? Because you have to have matches to get good at this game. Shooting in the basement or with the friends at a local range does not take the place of competing with other like minded shooters in a match that actually has winners and consequences. The sport doesn't exist without the hoard of volunteers needed to host a NC and the individuals that make local matchers possible.

So -
1. you need a range capable of hosting training and competition.
2. You need a competitive program, usually run by volunteers.
3. You need the team or group to compete with. Said groups can often act as a workable substitute for entry level coaching.
4. Family support.
5. Financial capacity to train and compete.
6. And finally advanced and hopefully professional coaching. Without the prerequisites, access, support, and resources, coaching is futile.

Just my 4 cents worth.

Larry

Whats an NC?

Prepare for more "resentment" [sic]

In the USA today, "Shooting" does not equal "Gymnastics."

For whatever reason, there does not seem to be enough young shooters, and their parents, willing to shell out $$$$$ and time (like in gymnastics) to create the talent pool that seems to exist in other countries. More on that below.


Major Point A

The point is, I agree with the "you value what you pay for" concept in a lot of instances (like raising children to be responsible with material wealth).

I don't think it extends to "You have to pay for lessons from a coach for you to improve and/or succeed."

Not just Russ' coaching (which I have seen the value of his contributions, not necessarily directly but in his posts and website) . . .

. . . but what about the "Soviet System" coaching- and the Chinese- and any other successful coaching system?

By observation, there are many more success stories where the shooter not only *didn't pay* for coaching but was instead *paid* (in cash, quality of life, opportunity, etc.) for the RESULTS and the coaching was part of the deal.

Think about it- how many world/national champions PAID (other than in dedication, hard work, and the opportunity cost of dedicating their lives to the sport) for their coaching?

Someone argued the AMU shooters "paid" for their coaching . . . not hardly! Ask any AMU members what they would be doing if not shooting for Team AMU. Or members of the chinese national team. What would they be doing if not shooting for the team?


Major Point II

Does the USA need more shooters willing to dedicate their lives and talent to the sport? You bet. Do those promising shooters need high-quality coaching, early on, to be successful? Yes, indeed.

Today, right now, in the USA, "Shooting" does not equal "Gymnastics."

The market forces that have created the great success in train9ing academies for gymnastics do not yet exist in shooting.

There are very few examples of shooting coaching enterprises that have succeeded in the USA- and they are mostly in PPC/IDPA type stuff.

I wish coaching had been available for me back in 1998 when I started shooting (bullseye) - but it wasn't. And at that I had more than most people- once a year the USAF pistol team would get together for a "training camp" for about a week. Most people on the line at a typical match don't even get that much.

Maybe my "resentment" (whatever) is not over any individual coach's success, failure, or even marketing effort in public forums . . . maybe, if there is any "resentment" it's over the lack of opportunity/coaching within the system we already have.

And I don't see it getting any better since 1998- with one notable exception. I have heard some promising things about new shooter development efforts with USAS, CMP, and USAS. And of course folks like Will Hart, Doc Sexton, Coach Wong, and others (including various individuals at shooting clubs all across the country) have been trying to keep it going for years . . .


Major Point 3

Maybe what Russ [and, by extension, all of us in the USA] needs is 1) more students, and 2) more competition!


Major Point D and a Question

Without incentives, this will not happen. Without "Big Gubbmint" (a la China, Russia) to provide these incentives, this will not happen in the USA. Shooting will never be as commercially attractive as gymnastics. Ain't gonna happen. So how do we thrive in this "Dis-Incentivized Environment?"

What about all the other non-China, non-Russia (and former soviet client states) countries with successful world/national champions? How do they do it?


Steve Swartz

Steve Swartz wrote:Prepare for more "resentment" [sic]


Someone argued the AMU shooters "paid" for their coaching . . . not hardly! Ask any AMU members what they would be doing if not shooting for Team AMU. Or members of the chinese national team. What would they be doing if not shooting for the team?


Steve Swartz

Might have been me who you are responding to about military shooters paying for their coaching. I still stand by that, they are giving their time, . If the AMU boys weren't in the unit they'd be in Iraq or Afganistan (not going is the reward). I'd say that is a pretty motivational system. Plus you earn your slot on the team thus you work for it. You want to stay in the AMU you work at so you do stay.

I agree shooting will never be gymnastics (thank god for that). Just as shooting is never going to be on prime time tv.

It does amaze me that everyone expects coaching for free still, even past basic level.

Maybe I'm having a senior moment here again . . . how is *not* getting shot at a price that is being *paid?*

I don't get it. Sounds more like a Chinese/Russian/fUSSR system where you are getting paid in "opportunity/quality of life" for shooting . . .

Steve

Steve wrote:

Without incentives, this will not happen. Without "Big Gubbmint" (a la China, Russia) to provide these incentives, this will not happen in the USA. Shooting will never be as commercially attractive as gymnastics. Ain't gonna happen. So how do we thrive in this "Dis-Incentivized Environment?"

What about all the other non-China, non-Russia (and former soviet client states) countries with successful world/national champions? How do they do it?

Shooting schools and coaching are available in the shotgun sports and in action pistol sports because there are competitors willing and eager to pay for training. Why? Because good training and coaching increases ones chances of winning a match and the money that goes with it. And how did that happen - because the equipment suppliers decided that financially supporting matches was good for business. Of course not every clays shooter goes on to shoot ISSF, but it does increase the pool of skilled shooters.

I just don't see this happening in the world of U.S. precision pistol shooting.

Fred Mannis wrote:Steve wrote:

Without incentives, this will not happen. Without "Big Gubbmint" (a la China, Russia) to provide these incentives, this will not happen in the USA. Shooting will never be as commercially attractive as gymnastics. Ain't gonna happen. So how do we thrive in this "Dis-Incentivized Environment?"

What about all the other non-China, non-Russia (and former soviet client states) countries with successful world/national champions? How do they do it?

Shooting schools and coaching are available in the shotgun sports and in action pistol sports because there are competitors willing and eager to pay for training. Why? Because good training and coaching increases ones chances of winning a match and the money that goes with it. And how did that happen - because the equipment suppliers decided that financially supporting matches was good for business. Of course not every clays shooter goes on to shoot ISSF, but it does increase the pool of skilled shooters.

I just don't see this happening in the world of U.S. precision pistol shooting.

Question is can we do something to make it happen?
Russ

"Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Russ, I hope a lot of hatchets got burried in the last few days. There are too few of us to waste even a moment fighting among ourselves. I support making your point and defending it. I do not suppore belittling the poster. Also, there is nothing wrong with a bit of humor{ especially during a competition to cope with match pressure] All are friends here. Good Shooting, Bill Horton

Thank you Bill!
This is my first USAS National. Olympic Shooting is tough sport. I met a lot of great people because of this sport over years, and I do not expect anything different right now. And we will come over together to take own chance to feel this moment of victory and happiness. I know for sure about one thing.... God is watching us! Great Victory can be attainable by The Great Person!
I wish you to All Olympic Style shooters to make own best scores and enjoy this great time at 2007 USAS National!
Russ