TargetTalk

jackh wrote: Tips on making the gun very very still are...

... keep the pressure of the finger on the trigger tongue very very still (= constant) maybe?

A lot of folks aren't going to like this, but here goes:

Tips on "holding the gun very still" are as rare as unicorns and for the same reason.

I have heard a lot of shooters talk about this - but have never seen any actual proof - and yes, I have "seen with my own eyes" my own sights "pause" in the sweet spot.

Alas, it was wishful thinking/optical illusion. When I checked the computer, yep, the gun was still moving. i only thought I saw it pause . . .

With all due respect to the various mythologies of shooting, in my opinion (etc) go ahead and chase unicorns if you want.

But *obviously* you don't need to "hold still" to shoot a ten. So why do you think you need to "hold still" in order to shoot two tens? Or three? Or 60?

Steve Swartz

(OBTW *of course* a "smaller hold" is in some ways better than a "larger hold." I'm just saying a "ten ring hold" is *not* required to shoot a ten. There are many other things to focus on that will improve your scores than trying to do teh impossible- i.e. hold the gun still.)

The hold in question is the hold in relation to the eye, the perfect aligned sights as seen by the eye, the hold we practice for aligned sights on a blank wall. That is the aspect of hold in my meaning.

Yes there will be wobble, but that is relatively unimportant. I do believe the wobble will be reduced greatly by the extra quality of the holds alignment.

he best example of what I'm referring to is illustrated in the bit of advice You have already recieved. To wit; DONT MOVE THE GUN WHILE MOVINS THE TRIGGER FINGER. wrong, wrong, wrong Correct .. Hold the gun still while moving the trigger finger. Use totally positive concepts.Use active mental effort in perfecting the relationship between the front and rear sight. after you have started the trigger finger moving. Figure out a way to let the trigger finger move any time you are mentally concentrating on perfecting sight allignment. My way is to start the finger moving first , then mentally moving to sight allignment. Such a small thing but a substantial difference in consept and performance. Good Shooting Bill Horton

I was/am interested to hear any tips on improving my gun hold.

mainly because I know it will increase my results, yes it is only one area to the total package, but an important one.

steve, most things discussed arent the absolute. they just help make it easier. having a better hold is not essential, but will make it easier.
having a better hold is more indirectly important to your results than the hold itself.
I think if you tested people better than you, you will find most to have a better hold.
If they havent, it means they are focusing better than you, and since you have pointed out you are sticking to what you are doing in that dept.
maybe wise to start to work on your hold some more if you want to improve.

imho

bryan

Does a heavy pistol (i.e. the old Steyr LP1, the old Pardini K2-Air) move less than a light pistol? Or does a heavy pistol have the same oscillation amplitude of a light pistol, but this oscillation is much *slower* using a heavy pistol (that is to say: more time on the sweat spot)?

It moves less and slower up to a certain weight where it starts to result in occasional uncontrollabe swings into the 7-8 ring when you get tired. A little bit too light is better than a little bit too heavy.


Regarding importance of the hold: have any of you that read Poddubniy's articles actually tried his excercises? I.E. the one where you rest your forearm simulating the perfect hold. It allows for much smoother ride when trying maintain sight alignment and execute the trigger properly. If the hold is not good enough, no amount of concentration, focusing on the front sight and subconscious shooting will produce the results.

Finally some recognition of the difference in hold wobble and hold alignment. Now consider the mental difference between getting sights aligned and staying aligned.

In my pyramid drills (described a few threads ago) my dry fire always starts out seated, with arm resting on butcher block table, pumping trigger while maintaining perfect alignment agaisnt a neutral (no distraction bull) background . . .

ending with dry fire standing, with shot plan, against neutral background.

Steve

I believe that is excellent Steve. What I am trying to uncover though is one layer deeper. You say "while maintaining perfect alignment". I want to discover the tips on mental and physical things to maximize or perfect "maintaining perfect alignment".

1) "Put your mind right"
a. Visualization & imagery (definition of "perfect" for both focus & align)
b. Key words and a. in shot plan
c. Proper mental and physical focus on front sight and alignment*

2) Train using 1) above; execute drills discussed here before (various repetitions on the "dry fire/live fire against blank target" drills) while 100% focusing on achieving the mental techniques listed above.

For example, before performing a dry fire drill, write down issues 1)a.-c. on a piece of paper. Write down how you will assess/measure how well you are following those objectives (training goals). Perform the drill, keeping score on how you actually executed 1)a.-c. After training, do a "hotwash" of what went well and how to improve for next training session.

Note: If done properly, it will take yoiu only a couple of training sessions to figure out how to do all this efficiently and effectively. It will then add only about 5-10 minutes ot your session.

But the payoff will be GINORMOUS!

p.s. apply this to all training objectives. This is what I (we) have referred to over and over as "FOCUS ON BEHAVIORS, NOT HOLES IN PAPER" approach to training.

Identify the specific BEHAVIOR
Define perfect<-> not so perfect
Figure out how to observe and assess performance of BEHAVIOR
Set training goal to be perfect behavior execution
Train and measure against achieving perfection on that behavior

Now, just add a little SPC/PVR/TQM/6sigma/Kaizen to the above, i.e. identify high "bang for the buck" behaviors, and you will have an OPTIMUM training approach for you.

Much better than the default "Flil-ology" most of us currently practice . . .



*this part is not so easy . . .

sorry for the typos- that was "FLAIL-ology" by the way . . . the old standby "shoot a lot to improve" BS

The "Shoot A Lot" (flail-ology or "non-directional") method is PRACTICE not TRAINING

"Regarding importance of the hold: have any of you that read Poddubniy's articles actually tried his excercises?"

Where can these be found? Thanks.

http://www.pilkguns.com/pistolcoaching.shtml - See "Vital problems of pistol shooting".

For Jackh What you m entioned in an earlier post about perfecting perfect sight allignment is {in my opinion] a strong indicator that you are on the right road. I am concerned about the posibility that a little to many of the posts deal with untested theory and are not a reliable means to our end. I believe that a highly criticle attitude about the relationship of front to rear sight assists in maintaining strong concentration on their relationship until the shot has fired. I would like to say," Stay off the yellow brick road" and pay very close attention to Ed,Steve Fred and others whose posts have a logical progression and make sense to you. good shooting Bill Horton