TargetTalk

In my opinion, the end responsibility resides with the shooter. The person with the pistol or the rifle in their hands.

I totally agree with this. This same would apply for carelessness in driving, fire safety & so forth.

As for some out there wondering about the appropriateness of this thread here on Target Talk… Are you JOKING? This is the ONLY place we have to talk about issues like this. This is our link together. We in this sport are a family and we need to communicate and band together.

Thank you for this. I had started this thread &was a little worried about the response it was generating.

Has anyone considered getting all of the organizations (NRA, CMP, etc) lawyers together and get them down to Mo. to help out?

Okay, i admit to some ignorance here. Who should we contact & how?

Has anyone contacted anyone in the military that is responsible for the JROTC programs and voiced your concerns for shutting down all programs because of the incident?

No, I initially contacted my daughters sargent to find out what had happened......they were just told all shooting was "in lock down until further notice". Who should be contacted with JROTC? local? district? regional? national?

What are you doing to protect our sport in this time of need. And YES! This is a time of need.

Nothing yet, but I will in some form, step up to the mat.

As for those that sign in as guest… Stand up and be counted for who you are. This is not a place to be invisible. The anti-gunners are banded together and put on a strong front. They do not care who knows who they are. We all need to be the same.

Well spoken

As goes this case, we all will go.[/quote]

It is not my place to fix blame but I do feel it is my place as a coach to discuss this tragedy with my team.

Ray Odle

Taylor, a guest:

Thanks for your input. I think it was welcomed as I hope mine is.

It is my understanding that the incident in MO was a cadet in the general marksmanship qualification/training portion of the AJROTC curriculum and not a member of the rifle team. That would indicate to me that he had heard fewer safety briefings than a team member would have. Purely speculation on my part.

However, I can relate that I was on a range Tuesday where an air rifle shooter had a problem with his rifle. His coach went to the line, took the rifle from him, pointing it at me [behind the line] as he did so, then took it behind me to work on it. The shooter went back there with him and stood in front of the muzzle. I couldn't believe it so I walked over and took the shooter by the shoulders and moved him to the safe end of the rifle and told him why. I was a guest on the range, but I didn't hesitate to step over and correct a [potentially] dangerous situation. Of course, the shooter was "sure" the rifle was not loaded or cocked and I think the coach just took his word for it.

Unless you are standing right beside a shooter on the line, you cannot positively control the muzzle of the rifle to keep it down range [if the shooter has a lapse in memory or safety consciousness] or the finger of the shooter to keep it off of the trigger. If you ARE standing right beside a shooter on the line, BE CAREFUL because sometimes, they will point it at YOU. I have learned this in beginner's camps such as the Competition BB-Gun Camps we hold every summer. I have grabbed BB-Gun barrels many times to keep them pointed down range instead of at me, others or the windows.

This incident scares me badly. For a few minutes, I thought about NOT coaching in a smallbore camp again next summer.

It is probably a good idea to have a safety briefing before every practice. Of course, you run the risk of it becoming just something they don't listen to and merely wait for it to be over with. I guess variety of presentation is the key there.

Ray, a coach

Ray, i absolutely agree with what you are saying 100%.
it so happened that last night i did have practice, so before practice i decided to talk to my team about the accident and just to let them know that this is a very serious concern, and that you can't get complacent when handling guns. Throughout the practice i noticed that everyone seemed to be more aware of how they were handling their rifles, so i do agree that before each practice or meet that the saftey issues should be gone over.

Im in MCJROTC program and they might also cancel our marksmenship program and theres a 99% likelyhood that it will happen. Were a small ROTC program only about 60 cadets and only 15 in marksmenship.I think its totally unfiar to shut down all ROTC's marksmenship programs because of one accident in a school no were near mine. Thanks alot stupid ARMY!!! one person can screw it up for the entire bunch and of course its the ARMY.......


USMC-Semper Fi

well im sure all of you are sick of hearing from me..but i just can't believe some of the things i am reading on here.first, there is no need for name calling, its no ones fault, alright? i believe that everything happens for a reason, and maybe this is to test how strong this sport is, im not sure. But, to want to end all jrotc programs is just down right obsurd, why punish all the programs for the carlessness of another. i understand that this is a very serious problem, but would you shut down an airport just because a plane crashed, i think not. shooting is one of the safest sports out there, and if you look at the character of the people involved, you will find very intelligent, independent, and strong people. i think that we in this sport, should act as a team to help this sport grow and to help us bounce back from this!! i know that we can still prove how great this sport is, but by shutting down programs it is almost as if some of you were quiting or giving up.

taylor
shooter.

I cannot believe that I read a post like the one from Oddball...honestly, this accident could've happened at ANY range...any JROTC program...Army or Marine Corps. None of us were there (to my knowledge) to know how much safety was enforced or what was really going on. In my opinion it has nothing to do with what branch of service it happened. The fact is that it DID happen and this is not the time for shooters to seperate and form our own little groups. This is a time when we need to stick together so that we can ensure that we/others can enjoy the sport. I'm sorry for singling someone out, but when I read that I couldn't believe my eyes.

Taylor wrote:would you shut down an airport just because a plane crashed, i think not.

No, but that's not a valid comparison. If an aircraft crashes, it's common for the manufacturer to order all examples of that make and model of aircraft grounded until the problem that caused the crash is fixed; the Boeing lost over the everglades because of arcing between electrical cabling in the fuel tanks, for example, saw Boeing jets worldwide being grounded until their cabling had been inspected.

The army is perfectly correct to shut down JROTC shooting temporarily in order to investigate what happened and evaluate potential responses to determine what course of action to take; to do otherwise would have been irresponsible, in fact. For example, what if the accident had been caused because the way the coach had been trained left a blind spot? Shutting down the JROTC shooting temporarily would allow them to determine this and fix the problem. Not shutting it down would risk further loss of life.

Sparks wrote:

Taylor wrote:would you shut down an airport just because a plane crashed, i think not.

The army is perfectly correct to shut down JROTC shooting temporarily in order to investigate what happened and evaluate potential responses to determine what course of action to take; to do otherwise would have been irresponsible, in fact. For example, what if the accident had been caused because the way the coach had been trained left a blind spot? Shutting down the JROTC shooting temporarily would allow them to determine this and fix the problem. Not shutting it down would risk further loss of life.

Okay,, I think there are some holes in this theory.
Nobobdy wants to see another tragedy happen like this & I do believe there should be some investigation into this------at this site.

If that investigation shows areas where safety can be improved for all programs then it should be inititated at that time.

But right now shutting down a program of this magnitude is just wrong. We are talking in our community of about 800,000 people, 25 high schools that have lost their shooting programs, figure at least 10 kids per program, then start adding in all your cities & states.??????

Okay, you made a comparison of the Boeing aircraft, maybe if they feel they need to do something across the board, then limit the .22 shooting, but keep open the air rifle???

Again, when mishaps have occured in high school football, they have not shut down the programs. Why? Because parents would be incensed by this. Why? because it could affect the scholarship progams available for their child. As a parent, I feel the same about the shooting sports program.

Again, driver's ed, mishaps have occured, have whole programs been shut down? No! Why because parents & students would be outraged at having their childs rights diminished because of the actions of 1 individual.

Also by shutting down the entire program, it makes it even harder to convince antigunners that it is okay to teach our kids about shooting, & belive me at some point thay will try & have this program removed from our schools.

Sorry, I just had to vent.

I just wanted to clarify that I am responsbile for the previos vent. Was so upset fogot to include my name
Deb

Here is a contact location so that we all can contact the heads of the JROTC systems. Or if these people listed are not the heads, at least they can pass on the information. Flood them with positive emails. Flood them with requests not to shut down programs.

http://www.jrotc.org/

I have though rec. a return reciept for a non contactable address.

This would be for Lt Griffen. I am looking for a different contact.

Make your voices heard.

Peter Dorn

Hi my name is caitlin I am 14(txnlegacy2's daughter). I would just like to say that i am outraged that the JROTC's shooting programs have been canceled. I mean YES they should make sure that the ranges are safe but over a period of time. They shouldn't cancel the shoooting though. For one thing there are people that have barely gotten used to high school kids shooting and with this tradgedy it just make people look badly onto the sport. Plus them shuting down everything makes me feel like I am noot trusted. I mean think about it JROTC kids are supposed to be the best of the best. You are supposed to be able to trust them. And the they shut down rotc shooting programs and this could start to make people think that if they can't trust JROTC kids with guns then why should we.

I think one solution to solvin this is have every range go over safety instructions and procedures before every practice and match. I mean i have been shooting all my life and i have been told the safety procedures and there have been no "shooting incidents ". Guns and shooting are not the problems here education is. as long as people no what can and will happen if you aren't safe nothin can or will go wrong.

I would like some clarification.

I'm reading 2 different things here.

Have all JROTC shooting programs been canceled?

or have they just been suspended pending an investigation?


Canceling then would be wrong, but suspending activities until an investigation is finished is pretty standard proceedures for the military. I don't think we should over react if the programs are just temporarily suspended.

As for the questions about if this topic should be discussed or not. We used it with our own club members as a point of discussion at our practice. Everyone needs to understand, Yes It can Happen To You!

[quote="TWP"]I would like some clarification.

I'm reading 2 different things here.

Have all JROTC shooting programs been canceled?

or have they just been suspended pending an investigation?

[quote]

Curently under suspension

name withheld wrote:
JROTC WITH THEIR RETIRED INSTRUCTORS, AND IMMATURE (AND OFTEN OUT OF CONTROL) HIGH SCHOOL KIDS, SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN RUNNING RIFLE RANGES IN THE FIRST PLACE.

SROTC PRODUCES LIEUTENANTS FOR OUR ARMY AT WAR. LET US GET BACK TO RANGE!

I respectfully disagree with the above.
Retired instructors----are they not ex military??? And as such, have they not proven their abilities?
Immature kids, yes some may be, but I do believe the majority of students in JROTC hae proven their maturity through understanding of our country's need for military training...not only that, they often excel in academics.
And yes, the colleges may produce lieutenants for our army.....but the interest starts at the high school level.

Again, it is not about not having ranges, it is about education & accepting responsiblity.

Hey this is caitlin again. I would just like to say i have not heard anything else about the suspension of shooting programs lettin up. The only thing that i have heard is that its gunna be a while. And i would just like to say that whoever said that the high school JROTC kids on the rifle team are immiture i would just like to say youre wrong. Myself and the fellow shooter on my team maintain high GPA'a and are some of the most respectable kids i have ever met. The kids on the JROTC rifle team are the best of the best the JROTC program.

Safety is simple, 1 always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, 2 always keep the action open unless actually taking a shot, 3 keep your finger off the trigger unless your sights are ON the intended target.

All 3 of these simple rules were violated in this tragic event. Poor training and poor monitoring of the firing line is appearent. That being said this seems like manslaughter rather than a so called "accident".

guest wrote:IMHO, we should delete this whole thread and start one on safety.

I just received an email note from a college rifle coach that stated that the 4-star general that has the ultimate oversight over Army JROTC is considering terminating (as one option) all Army JROTC shooting programs because of the accident at Missouri Military. The email also stated that it might be helpful if positive notes concerning the positive aspects of JROTC shooting education be sent to:

Ashley Garman
Chief HS Division, HQ
4th Region AROTC
garmana@4rotc.lewis.army.mil

Maybe they should shut down football since a few kids die every year from injuries and or dehydration........ for that matter, we should not be driving, walking the streets or breathing the air because sombody somewhere accidently died from something related.....

Let them go back to shooting its absurd!

Moe.