TargetTalk

I dont mind the slam, ive ate dogfood to get by, i know where i came from.
I understand budgets and being responsible.
I also understand winning 'state championships' a $1000 budget isnt going to win, sorry. 1500 might find a used gun that can get it done, especially if sumbodys creative. 2000 will get a used gun good enough.

If shooter dad buys a 500 or 1000 new gun now, in three years, a month before the sons last dance, dads going to buy the gun he should buy now and its going to be to late.

I know a hs shooter that has 5-10000 worth of gun and gear. She paid for it all herself cause she has a job.

If you cant buy what you need, dont buy til ya can.

1911 prone stock is just long. If you shorten it and add a 1913 style hook it hangs the same as a 1913. Built my sons first 54 action that way and it shot real well. He was a collegian shooter at the Airforce academy in the 90s. My wife shoots that rifle still today and it still shots well.

bnice wrote:1911 prone stock is just long. If you shorten it and add a 1913 style hook it hangs the same as a 1913. Built my sons first 54 action that way and it shot real well. He was a collegian shooter at the Airforce academy in the 90s. My wife shoots that rifle still today and it still shots well.

True, but there are still better choices for 3-P.

How did it balance? Anschutz prone rifles have the action mounted about 1.5in further forwards than a 1913. Would the weight of the metal buttplate compensate for this, especially after losing wood from the butt; a Supermatch stock has more wood at the back, and the metal LOP adjustable carrier.

The receiver position also another 1.5in reach to load.

As I said you shorten it, meaning the stock! Once you shorten it to the length of a 1913 it hangs like a 1913. I actually took it a little shorter since my son was in his mid teens and smaller. My wife also small still loves that gun. She shoots it on average once to twice a week. I also shortened the forearm slightly to lighten the front up a little, stipples the forearm and had Neal Johnson bed it for me. Was a very reasonable priced rifle.

4-H Smallbore Rifle is an interesting discipline. Air Rifle not as much, but the same does apply.
In the multi-event format the silhouettes is where you can pick up points quickly.
(My club is an "International" feeder, so we concentrate on 3-P)

If you can get the 541 to fit in 3-P and use good ammo, it is within reason that a shooter can do very well with it. (not a small shooter though)

Our international shooting organization here in the US - USA Shooting - does support youth shooting --- to a degree. They hold an annual JO event in April ... and some of the top shooters do see some international competition. As per funding the club programs ... no.

That's where 4-H and other club programs come in ... they are the development programs that try and funnel the better shooters to our international programs.

It is unfortunate that there is, and probably always will be a gap in two levels of shooters seen at the 4-H Nationals. However, the kids at the top, competing at the top are, for the most part VERY dedicated to their chosen sport. We are not talking about occasional training, but probably a minumum of 3-4 hours long sessions EACH WEEK, 52 WEEKS a year.
If you are going to support a kid doing that it is insane to not get them the best equipment & that you can afford. This is what creates the gap ... the time and yes, money put into the athlete.

Too many (and I'm not saying that you are ... in fact you are admitting a limit) in 4-H put down those shooters that put in the effort. An I'm including some of the ROs & Officials that run the event. Thay's why I refuse to go and attend (since 2009). My shooters can go, but I warn them of the attitudes.
I have a 4-H program in my state. There is no apology for us admitting we are a feeder program for the Collegiate, Intercollegiate & International levels.
We do have kids that shoot for fun, but they know if they are not willing/able to put in the work required they will probably not be on the #1 team. We take 'em all & try to have club guns for all. Our more aspiring shooters can borrow some of our private guns if they show the dedication.
Note that has taken our program 16 years to acquire "our" resources. We use NRA foundation grants for our club resources (think beginner & intermediate guns and ammo. This can sometimes take enough of a load off the parents can get up to a 54 action.

Believe me ... I had quite a case of sticker shock the 1st one I bought .... but a National coach told me, and I believe him, that I'd always be able to get at least 80% back out of the rifle ... plus, if they decide to really commit they can very well get an athletic scholarship to help pay for college.

I have a shooter now who is going to an NCAA team next year, and his 1st year athletic scholarship will pay for the kit they ahve picked up over the years.
One of my own daughters scholarships "paid" for all of the guns for all my daughters.
Her 54 action'd rifle was a 3rd hand rifle ... and 5 years after we bought it she won the NCAA smallbore rifle championship .... so they don't really shoot bad unless they are abused.

I also encourage my shooters to dabble in other sports ... they may find one they are more willing to put the time & effort into to become really good.
(I do try and discourage rodeo, snow-machine racing, 4-wheeling ... grin). I discourage the X-boxing & sitting on your butt stuff.

A fact in life is very few of us are a "natural" at anything. It takes time & dedication to become great.

Financially, only you know what is good for you & your family. Stick with what you are doing but be aware of limitations that may be imposed.
If a shooter is dedicated they can do well. I had a shooter make JOs years ago with an Izmash CM-2 Cadet (one of our our "intermediate trainer" rifles - crappy trigger, but shoots straight).

Probably the two items that can help an advanced intermediate shooter (IMO) - 1) Decently matched ammo(probably >$10/box) and 2) a decent trigger on the gun. Don't skimp on the ammo. We use CCI Standard velocity for TRAINING in our beginners & intermediates ... this is not match quality ammo. Lapua STD+/Wolf Match is the minimum match ammo I'd consider.

A ramble, I know --- hope it helps.

Here's an article written by a friend of mine, Jim Taylor. It's not directly linked to the subject at hand, but it does have a lot to do with the idea of the shooter being even more important than the equipment. Food for thought.

Old School Gunology

John Linebaugh introduced me to that phrase years ago, using it on the masthead of his now-long-gone magazine The Shootist. It aptly describes what his philosophy of the sixgun was and is. It also describes mine (and many others I might add). It is not something that a person tries to get as much as it is a mindset, a way of looking at things. It is akin to what folks mean when they talk about "the Cowboy Way".

In the first issue John said of the Old School Sixgun way of thinking: "...we hope....to keep this knowledge alive and circulate it to those who consider themselves a part of the ...Old School style shooter..... While we... are in favor of any sport that burns powder ...our byword is PRACTICAL... like the Silhouette and Short Rifle shooters our interest is firearms. We just look down a different set of barrels...."

In a later issue he stated: "We simply advocate the man and his skill with his gun. This is all you have when your back is to the wall."

Not Equipment Oriented

This way of looking at using firearms is first of all not "equipment oriented". By that I mean that we understand it is not so much what the person uses as it is the person using it .... their personal skill and ability. There are many shooters who seem to have the idea that a more expensive gun will make them a better shot. As if technology can somehow replace competence. Or they seem to think that if they remodel the gun it will somehow make up for a lack of skill.

I am not against expensive guns or remodeling them. I have remodeled quite a few of my own. But I learned a long time ago that it is the man, not the gun, that gets the job done. And that does not come by doing something that makes you feel better or more self-assured. It comes from practice, use, and familiarization ... until you hit what you shoot at simply because you can.

The guns that Ed McGivern used to set world records that have not been equaled to this day were in many cases factory Smith & Wesson and Colt's revolvers... unmodified. The trigger pulls were not lightened. The hammer springs were not changed from factory springs. Many had factory grips left on them. HE was good. It wasn't the gun. It was the Operator.

My Dad shot competition with the Law Enforcement teams when he worked for the Department of Corrections. He has a room full of trophies that he won over the years. He won so many matches he was asked to set out some of the meets and give some of the other guys a chance! In the first instance of being asked that, he asked if he could shoot the match totally "weak-handed" and they said, "Sure". He came in 2nd that meet... by about 3 seconds behind the First Place winner.

His gun was his old 586 S&W .357. It was totally as it came from the factory other than he carved and whittled the factory grips down to where they fit his hand. It was and is not pretty. It is not any more accurate than the run-of-the-mill Smith's. His competition loads will stay around 2" at 25 yards from a rest. But he is good! (even as I write this.. nearing 80 years of age.. he is still a great DA shot.. he practices several times a week). His ability to win matches came from his ability first and foremost, not from his equipment.

Time and Work

Elmer Keith wrote in Sixguns: "More time is required to master the handgun than any other type of firearm. To become an expert sixgun shot, one must live with the gun. Only by constant use and practice can one acquire a thorough mastery of the shortgun. You must work and play with it, eat with it, sleep with it, and shoot it every day - until it becomes a part of you and you handle it as surely as you would your knife and fork at the table." (Sixguns - page 57)

This type of commitment to learning and maintaining a skill is not found in a lot of people in our fast-paced, "I want it now", society. It requires that you get a different paradigm if you will .. a different mental model than the instant results that we are unconsciously bombarded with by the media .. (we see it in advertising: Do you want a girlfriend? Buy this car.. use this toothpaste .. and suddenly you will be popular). While we may laugh at the notion, this type of thinking has unconsciously invaded our culture and affected how we view the world and ourselves.

I realized it in me one day when, standing in front of the microwave waiting for a baked potato to get done in 4 minutes I found myself getting impatient. And I suddenly flashed back to when I was a kid. Mom baked them in the oven of a coal stove and it took 40 minutes!! In those days we did not start getting impatient until 35 minutes had passed. The "I WANT IT NOW!" syndrome had gotten to me!

Reading Ed McGivern's book I noted that one time he was told that it would be impossible to hit a can 5 or 6 times before it hit the ground when dropped from a height of 20 feet. He said that after 30,000-some rounds he found he could do it quite easily. And he said it in an off-hand manner, as if that were a normal course of affairs! (it was..for him) A lot of shooters don't fire that many rounds a lifetime, let alone in a few months. That kind of dogged determination is what sets the Old School shooters apart from the rest.

Quoting Elmer again: "..pistol shots are not born. They get that way by constant hard work and steady practice, studying each and every move and perfecting their technique..." (Sixguns page 59)

With the competing demands of a family, work, and all the pressures that life today brings to bear, it does require a singular mindset to stay focused. Those sixgunners who are able to do so get my salute. You are Old School!

Shooting

Please do not think that I am against you making your pistol better, or customizing it, or working to increase it's accuracy potential. Not at all. What I am trying to say is, beware of substituting those things for old-fashioned pistol work. If you are a collector and have no interest in shooting them, that's fine. If you just like to tinker with them, that's great. If you want to be a good shot, don't let other things get in the way.

I get emails from young shooters who are just starting into the game. Usually they ask something like: "I only have one gun. If I _______________ (fill in the blank here- "rebarrel" .."lighten the trigger" .. "put on a scope" etc) will it make it better? My normal answer is to tell them to shoot it. Shoot it a lot. Get to where that gun is an extension of your arm. Above all, don't feel inadequate because you cannot afford a "better" or "fancier" or "more powerful" gun. Use what you have to the best of it's ability. I have seen guys who had guns that "were not as good" as some others, but who could do wonders with them.

I met a young man years ago who had broken his neck in a sky-diving accident. He was a quadriplegic for some time, then began to get some movement back through therapy (and the Lord's help I am sure). Dad and I introduced him to handgun shooting. Because his hands were weak he decided to buy a semi-auto pistol He could not afford much and looked around until he found a copy of the Luger, imported by Erma.. a cheap .22 rimfire.

He shot that thing everyday. He started out shooting at 10 feet. When he got to where he could hit a paint can lid consistently he backed up to 20 feet. At first he could not hold the gun up for more than 3 or 4 shots. But he kept at it. Eventually he was shooting hundreds of rounds a day.. sometime going through a whole brick of .22's at one session. By the time he got rid of the gun it was junk. He shot it totally loose. But he could hit anything he shot at. I saw him beat 3 riflemen breaking gallon jugs at 100 yards with it! It was not a better gun than their guns. He was. That is Old School Gunology.

The question isn't really about learning to shoot, but what equipment is competitive for one who has already learned the basics. I appreciate the desire to avoid an arms race, but for competition that boat sailed decades ago.

While some exceptionally talented people, like McGivern, who can practise extensively, appear to do well with stock items, not everyone can. McGivern's "stock" revolvers were from the most respected manufacturers of the day, and required much hand fitting to make.

I think only one response has been to ignore budgets and buy the best possible. Most replies have suggested good quality, but older and more affordable kit, as a base on which to build.