TargetTalk

Chia wrote:
How does it improve accuracy, out of curiosity? I know about the legal side but not the practical, and I'm interested in it.

Reduces recoil and dampens barrel vibration. I run one on my long range rifle (.308 heavy barrel Rem 700), I also have them on an heavy barrel AR15, a .223 bolt gun and .22 rimfires. Luckily, here in New Zealand they are freely available for use on any gun.

Thanks! I get the barrel vibration and recoil reduction with the more powerful rounds, but does it help with .22lr? That round is pretty soft on the shooter anyway, especially the sub-1000 feet/s stuff.

What about the stuff called Acoustiblok? Seem to have good demo's on their website.

[quote="Chia"How does it improve accuracy, out of curiosity? I know about the legal side but not the practical, and I'm interested in it.[/quote]

I'm way out of my depth but here goes anyway. My opinion is based only on what I've read so take this with a grain of salt. In the past I've seen advertisements for rifles with "tuners" threaded to the end of the barrel. No suppression, but a way to adjust a weight on the end of the barrel. The theory seemed to be that one could "tune" the barrel's harmonic vibrations to make it more consistent. If the barrel whip were more consistent, I presume more shots would land in the same hole.

My experience is limited to a Benjamin Marauder .25 PCP air rifle on which I some times use a Clague "air stripper". While I haven't measured the sound level with a meter, there is a noticeable difference in the sound of the discharge. The groups off the bench are virtually identical. YMMV.

Dennis in the PRK

With most hunting in UK being with air rifles we are not only limited to small vermin, we also rely on very sub sonic shots. With an unmoderated air rifle you only ever get one rabbit. The rest scarper. For that reason moderators are readily available but poor quality ones are a definite source of inaccuracy if the exit hole is not very concentric with the bore due to air flow being uneven. Air strippers are far more common on field target air rifles.

OP; you are looking for information on "non-portable silencers" or suppressors. The military did a study on this but that is probably >15 years ago or so. There really is no state-of-the-art source on modern designs. The military study was decidedly low-tech. It did do a good job of reporting the sound at various locations and distances. The conclusion of this report was that it would be too restrictive on training and therefore was not worth further consideration. But in your case they could solve your noise concerns. These products are NOT nfa. There is no concern about tax stamps or registration of these devices with ATF. A key tip if you go the tire route is to be sure to drill ~2" holes in the tires so that they: 1: cannot collect water and become a breeding ground for mosquitos. 2. Can not collect "green" (unburnt) powder that will become a safety issue and then flash. Do not consider fiberglass batting. It is a short term performance gain but a long term serious risk. In short the longer the tube the more effective it will be. 18" pipe is a good starting point. Add a couple of plywood baffles. Use plywood end caps on both end. Be prepared for it sounding dramatically louder to you.

The quietest indoor 22lr range I have ever shot at was the Canisius College range in the mid 70's. It used egg cartons on the ceilings and walls to about 3/4 down the range. Not the styroform type cartons but the press fiber type. The range sounded like and air rifle range. It was amazing. The material had a lot of surface area and had angles that aided in sound reduction, reflection and absorption.

About the Swiss pics..

As I recall (fuzzy though) when I shot a 1000 pt 600yd prone match at The Original 1000 Yard Benchrest Club in Trout Run PA, the range had a thru road that was not closed to traffic about 450yds from the firing line. The targets were maybe 100 feet above the road given the valley terrain. Shots were way above roadway and you could clearly see 18 wheelers and cars traversing the road when shooting.

I read a paper on some long distance shooters in Europe that were shooting with silencers/suppressers. they found that besides the obvious reduction in noise, their accuracy was INCREASED. If you are able to shoot with one and don't need some other extension like a tuner, then you might do some research and consider this especially if it is just for practice.

$0.02,

Joel

Xman wrote:
As I recall (fuzzy though) when I shot a 1000 pt 600yd prone match at The Original 1000 Yard Benchrest Club in Trout Run PA, the range had a thru road that was not closed to traffic about 450yds from the firing line. The targets were maybe 100 feet above the road given the valley terrain. Shots were way above roadway and you could clearly see 18 wheelers and cars traversing the road when shooting.

If you can see them and they are mid range its ridiculously easy to hit them surely?

TenMetrePeter wrote:

Xman wrote:
As I recall (fuzzy though) when I shot a 1000 pt 600yd prone match at The Original 1000 Yard Benchrest Club in Trout Run PA, the range had a thru road that was not closed to traffic about 450yds from the firing line. The targets were maybe 100 feet above the road given the valley terrain. Shots were way above roadway and you could clearly see 18 wheelers and cars traversing the road when shooting.

If you can see them and they are mid range its ridiculously easy to hit them surely?

The firing line was also way up in the air too and you shot across a valley that had the roadway in it and beyond the road were the targets. It was a real deep valley too.

TenMetrePeter wrote:If you can see them and they are mid range its ridiculously easy to hit them surely?

Don't forget the trajectory; to hit the target at 600 yards, the bullet's trajectory means it travels several feet above the line of sight. A conscientious RO should notice if a competitors barrel is pointing that low.

Tim S wrote:

TenMetrePeter wrote:If you can see them and they are mid range its ridiculously easy to hit them surely?

Don't forget the trajectory; to hit the target at 600 yards, the bullet's trajectory means it travels several feet above the line of sight. A conscientious RO should notice if a competitors barrel is pointing that low.

Accidents and misfires never happen? Well I wouldnt sit under the targets in our airgun range and rely on the RO to make sure they weren't pointing guns downwards. I certainly wouldn't want to be down range of lethal rifle rounds even in a vehicle. No person is allowed forward of the firing line. Rule 1. Period.

Peter,

The range rules for 10m air are not the same as for full-bore. There is a massive difference between sitting between a 10m shooter and the target, and being 100' under the line of sight on a 600 yard range. This does not mean that safety is not important on full-bore ranges; GB-NRA RO certification is much stricter than the NSRA's to account for thibgs like echelon firing.

The main difference being I don't get my brains blown out with air pellet, and I have the choice to go down range or not unlike those poor sods in the bus. Still, it's not my sport so I'll butt out!

TenMetrePeter wrote:The main difference being I don't get my brains blown out with air pellet, and I have the choice to go down range or not unlike those poor sods in the bus. Still, it's not my sport so I'll butt out!

Well, maybe we could all hand our guns in to the government. That would be even safer!

TenMetrePeter wrote:Accidents and misfires never happen? Well I wouldnt sit under the targets in our airgun range and rely on the RO to make sure they weren't pointing guns downwards. I certainly wouldn't want to be down range of lethal rifle rounds even in a vehicle. No person is allowed forward of the firing line. Rule 1. Period.

Don't ever go to Lightwater or travel on the M3 - technically a loose shot from Bisley or Pirbright could make it out there. It's outside the safety zone, but if we're taking things to the realm of "anything could happen", then they're no-go areas given the range of modern ammo with improved ballistic characteristics.

I also assume you've never ever been to Jenny's on Bisley Camp? Downrange of the 500/600yd points, but well outside the danger arc. In fact the vast majority of Bisley Camp is "in front" of the Century 600yd point. Just off to the left a bit!

Yes, it's weird to see stuff downrange. That doesn't mean it's inherently unsafe if you've read and understood the contents of JSP403/NRA Range Construction guidelines and are applying them appropriately.

Tim S wrote:Peter,

The range rules for 10m air are not the same as for full-bore. There is a massive difference between sitting between a 10m shooter and the target, and being 100' under the line of sight on a 600 yard range. This does not mean that safety is not important on full-bore ranges; GB-NRA RO certification is much stricter than the NSRA's to account for things like echelon firing.

To be pedantic, the rules are the same. It's the ranges that are different! In both cases you have a cone emerging from the muzzle - a larger angle for pistols or positional rifle, smaller for prone-only or benchrest.

As you know, anything outside that cone is "safe", anywhere inside it is dangerous.

On a 10metre air range there isn't much space between shooter and target, and most clubs fill the available width wall-to-wall with firing points, so you have no safe-space outside the targets. Other than lying down in front of the firing point, there isn't much outside the cone of fire. But in a wide enough room of course it could be entirely possible to have a one or two lanes down one wall and people down the other side of the room.

On a 600-1000yd range, things like echelon firing become more obvious, and as you say - if you're on uneven ground or firing over a valley, it's possible to have roadways pass under the cones of fire.

The important thing about the Swiss firing ranges that shoot over roads or are near towns are the safety rules, where guns are allowed to be loaded, and what is actually visible from the firing point.

In the example of a road, you might be able to see passing traffic standing or sitting behind the firing line. But you won't be able to see the traffic when you're down in the prone position ready to fire.

Here's a good video that shows one such range:
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... olesyqUbmQ

Like I say I stand corrected!
It is difficult to see from the photo but I assume that in the Swiss range the tubes are to restrict the cone of fire so apart from parabolic trajectory caused by poor cartridge loading it is relatively safe.

I have been to Bisley many times but I only go for the shop!. The distances to travel puts me off centre fire and the whole police thing puts me off rimfire.

Re 10m cone of fire yes I was making that very point that there is no safe area in front of the firing line in 10m and our main concern is youngsters closing break barrel pistols while they are still facing 90 degrees left!

TenMetrePeter wrote:Like I say I stand corrected!
It is difficult to see from the photo but I assume that in the Swiss range the tubes are to restrict the cone of fire so apart from parabolic trajectory caused by poor cartridge loading it is relatively safe.

I think the tubes in the photo could only be for sound. But they do look metallic.

Even without the tubes from the firing positions, the vertical boards (which I presume will be ballistic materials) limit the sides of the firing cones, and the trucks and building are safely behind the forward berm/wall. Parabolic travel is limited by the baffle forward of the firing positions.

So any shot, accidental or deliberate, will go down range to the targets or hit one of the obstructions (boards, berm, or baffle).

I had a friend on the USAF shooting team many many years ago. His 22 target rifle had a weight/balance tube that attached to the end of the rifle. It was just a plain metal tube specifically for balance. it had no baffling, etc. It was about 1" inside dia. It also had a silencer effect even though that was not its stated purpose. That 22 was tremendously quieter than any of my airguns. It was also a long range tack driver.

As far as shooting thru large sound absorbing tubes, they wouldn't be difficult to construct. Large heavy PVC from a building supply and the acoustic foam can be purchased at many music/recording supply stores like Guitar Center or Sam Ash. Thick carpeting works well also.