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Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:23 am
by gwsb
Chia I am not a lawyer in South Carolina or anywhere else. However it seems to me that congress and the pres could, with a simple majority, outlaw NFA firearms. As you point out the political realities might be different and there are so few of them that in any week you can see more of them on TV than actually exist in America.

I see a scenario, however, where on Jan 21 the new pres sends to the Senate a name to replace Scalia that would join with the other 4 to reverse the Heller decision and move the 2nd amendment from an individual right to a governmental right. Cities all over America would be free to vote to ban all firearms as Chicago and Washington did pre-Heller.

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:46 pm
by Chia
gwsb wrote:Chia I am not a lawyer in South Carolina or anywhere else. However it seems to me that congress and the pres could, with a simple majority, outlaw NFA firearms. As you point out the political realities might be different and there are so few of them that in any week you can see more of them on TV than actually exist in America.

I see a scenario, however, where on Jan 21 the new pres sends to the Senate a name to replace Scalia that would join with the other 4 to reverse the Heller decision and move the 2nd amendment from an individual right to a governmental right. Cities all over America would be free to vote to ban all firearms as Chicago and Washington did pre-Heller.
Whoo boy your post has a lot to unpack! No worries about not being a lawyer. I'm just glad you folks don't hold it against me....most of the time. I strongly suspect that most lawyers hide it on forums like this because they don't want the blowback or are concerned about liability (hence my signature disclaimer, which applies to this post!). I'll switch from suggesting an investment to answering questions in this post.

First, the political reality. The president doesn't need to get involved at all. It's all up to Congress. But yes, you are correct that Congress could repeal the NFA. In a similar level of likelihood, Congress could also pass a budget each year like us normal people have to and could repeal the tax code. Neither seems likely, and I'd give similar odds for prohibiting NFA firearms.

Political realities aside, I'll briefly discuss the legal issues you bring up. First up is the Supreme Court. Attacking a law judicially is a heck of a lot more complicated than going through the legislative process. Unlike Congress, where you just need to present the bill and get a majority, you have to make an actual, real case, try it, appeal it, appeal it again, and then appeal it to the Supreme Court. This is a huge undertaking, and the odds of getting the Supreme Court to hear a case are slim. The Supreme Court receives at least 6,000 petitions per year. They actually hear arguments and decide less than 200.

So yeah, getting a case to the Supreme Court takes a lot of time, money and effort. It wouldn't happen in an instant, and you would definitely see it coming. There are many groups that track these cases. It would, at a minimum, take several years to get to the point that the Supreme Court would consider a legal challenge to the NFA. That's excluding any intentional slowing of the process during discovery at the trial level, which is almost certain to happen on such a contentious legal issue. Also, any decision by the Supreme Court is very unlikely to strike down the NFA. They have a case on it already: the Miller case. Unless there are serious and significant differences, stare decises will control and the Supreme Court will not overturn that precedent.

Lastly, your point about cities. Let's assume that we get to the point you are talking about and that cities attempt to ban the firearms. States can already do this with NFA firearms. Not all do. But for those that do, cities are often locked out of legislating in that area by what's called a preemption statute. For example, South Carolina has S.C. Code Ann. § 23-31-510 states that "No governing body of any county, municipality, or other political subdivision in the State may enact or promulgate any regulation or ordinance that regulates or attempts to regulate [firearm possession, sale or transportation]." These are very common provisions, and I'll bet that this would be the next point of defense that the various firearms lobbyists would move to.

Tstamey, silencers are legally firearms, both under the Gun Control Act (GCA) and the NFA. You have to fill out exactly the same paperwork for a silencer as you would for a short-barreled shotgun.

Any other questions? I know we've gotten a bit far afield from the topic, but I thought this would be a good opportunity to clear up some confusion about this stuff. There has been a ton of snake oil sold about firearms law in the last few years, and one of the goals of my business is to make sure that firearms law gets cleaned up and made more respectable. It does not currently have a good reputation in the legal profession (gun trust lawyers are around ambulance chasers on the totem pole), and it really needs to so that attorneys learn this law and can properly help clients meet their goals. Nobody wants to be in the ATF's or a local USDA's sights for violating either the NFA or GCA, and I REALLY don't want to see one of my clients there.

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:32 pm
by scrane
Best to buy before the next school shooting. Prices and demand will go up.

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:22 pm
by tstamey
"Tstamey, silencers are legally firearms, both under the Gun Control Act (GCA) and the NFA. You have to fill out exactly the same paperwork for a silencer as you would for a short-barreled shotgun."

Chia, to quote gwsb "I'm not a lawyer" but I stand by my original statement:

"The huge increase in Form 4's in 2013 till this summer was due to pending ATF changes in Trusts. The overwhelming majority of those NFA Form 4's were for suppressors which in the real world are nothing but gun mufflers and not firearms."

I may not have a law degree but I happen to do Business Development for a large suppressor manufacturer. So since I do this for a living I know a little about the paperwork required under the GCA and I did say Form 4's are required as they are for all NFA items. Our government does not operate in what most non-lawyers would call "reality" and the fact that the U.S. government classifies suppressors as firearms does not make them a true firearm in the common sense sort of way. Quite a few countries outlaw semiautomatics but let anyone buy a suppressor over the counter with no paperwork as it does not fire a projectile but merely suppresses the noise to protect the hearing of everyone around.

One other thing: I did not mention whom I work for, or a website, or anything else as I do not participate in this forum to drum up business. ;-)

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:19 pm
by TenMetrePeter
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Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:23 pm
by Chia
You know, if it offended you folks that greatly, you could have just said something via PM. I'm not here to piss anyone off. If you don't want me here, that's your business. I'll remove the personal references since it apparently makes you uncomfortable, but I'm not going anywhere.

I'm not sure how you figure that I am drumming up business for my site. Considering there are...what, one or two South Carolinians on this site? Kind of limits my advertising needs here. Never mind the fact that most people on this sight aren't even from this country...or that gun trusts don't sell for jack anyway.

No, the information was used as a note that if someone was curious about something, they could ask me a question. I managed to finagle the wording so that I could answer nonspecific questions and not get into any ethical trouble. Honestly, I'm more interested in forming personal connections than business ones. I like meeting new people and discussing a hobby. Some of us just have differing levels of comfort about how much information they reveal on the internet.

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:19 am
by SamEEE
Steady on, friends!

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:26 am
by TenMetrePeter
Chia wrote:
I'm not sure how you figure that I am drumming up business for my site. Considering there are...what, one or two South Carolinians on this site? Kind of limits my advertising needs here. Never mind the fact that most people on this sight aren't even from this country...t.
Your motives are obviously honorable but its not how Googlebot and Bingbot work when they regularly visit the site. Any web link in the sig of your 120-ish posts will be picked up and the prominence of your site in searches in your neighborhood will be higher up the list. Its why most sites ban business links and moderators normally PM you. Maybe not here because I cant find the rules.

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:31 am
by Chia
TenMetrePeter wrote:
Chia wrote:
I'm not sure how you figure that I am drumming up business for my site. Considering there are...what, one or two South Carolinians on this site? Kind of limits my advertising needs here. Never mind the fact that most people on this sight aren't even from this country...t.
Your motives are obviously honorable but its not how Googlebot and Bingbot work when they regularly visit the site. Any web link in the sig of your 120-ish posts will be picked up and the prominence of your site in searches in your neighborhood will be higher up the list. Its why most sites ban business links and moderators normally PM you. Maybe not here because I cant find the rules.
I can't find them either. As to search engine optimization, you may not be aware that Googlebot and bingbot also have limitations relating to both content and geography. While the content here is similar enough, the geography is not, especially as I never "pinged back" on my website to this one. If you try to search for my website based on search parameters related to "gun" "attorney" and "columbia, SC" or "estate planning columbia sc" you won't find anything.

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:24 pm
by TenMetrePeter
I have good news!! I Googled "gun attorney columbia sc estate planning" on google.co.uk and I got you at number 11 on page 1.

Edit: Bad news, can't repeat it :-(

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:24 pm
by Chia
TenMetrePeter wrote:I have good news!! I Googled "gun attorney columbia sc estate planning" on google.co.uk and I got you at number 11 on page 1.

Edit: Bad news, can't repeat it :-(
Not surprised. I can't repeat it either here in the US. Anyways, enough. Let's move on.

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:55 pm
by gwsb
What did I miss? Why does it offend anyone if someone wants to use the site to get business. If the S.C. Bar Assoc. is ok with it I certainly am, and your suppressor business also. Hell one part of the site is 100 % business. The rifle forum has a guy from Walther posting regularly on it and no one is upset.

I am personally interested and wish anyone well who can make a buck from the shooting sports, and I want to know more about it.

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:57 pm
by SamEEE
Who cares?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:33 am
by TenMetrePeter
ok objection overruled ;-)

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:39 pm
by gwsb
Opps... never mind.

Anybody want to buy 100 30 round mags? Just kidding.

Re: Investment Advice

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:44 pm
by Xman
gwsb wrote:Opps... never mind.

Anybody want to buy 100 30 round mags? Just kidding.

How much?, brands? calibers? include shipping?

Folks in Cali might be interested as legal gun owners LOST big time there Tuesday. Not kidding


Gun control was on the ballot in four states, including California, which already has some of the nation's toughest gun-related laws. Voters there approved a measure that will outlaw possession of large-capacity ammunition magazines, require permits to buy ammunition and extend California's unique program that allows authorities to seize firearms from owners who bought guns legally but are no longer allowed to own them.

Pray for them and then rest of us cause as Cali goes..the nation usually follows.

but hey! you can smoke pot till you pass out, drive your car into a crowd of people and get a pretty light sentence.