TargetTalk

It beats working for a living.

john bickar wrote:

sparky wrote:

john bickar wrote:And to stir the pot further:

Jin or Kim Rhode? (TBD, but Jin slightly)
Jin or Matt Emmons? (Hmmm and TBD)
Jin or Wang Yifu? (Jin)
Jin or Brian Zins? (Jin)
Jin or Doug Koenig? (Jin)

Hmm...Brian Zins has shown a longer period of dominance, but only in one discipline (Bullseye).

Doug Koenig has excelled in a much wider range in disciplines. Lately, his bread and butter has been NRA Action Pistol's Bianchi Cup (17 times!) which emphasizes accuracy with slight variations in target size, distance, position, and movement; however, he's also a former IPSC world champion (and multi-time USPSA national champion and Steel Challenge) which largely speak to fast shooting with centerfire guns involving movement.

But on top of that, he's 21-time Masters Champion, an event incorporates centerfire speed shooting, rimfire precision shooting, and long-range silhouette pistol shooting. In addition, He's also a 19-time Sportsmen's Team Challenge winner, which is all speed based, but incorporates some more precise rimfire pistol and rifle, as well as shotgun clay target shooting (although one could only say he's only one man on the team).

Given the above, I think it's hard to beat his level of ability in several different pistol, rifle, and shotgun disciplines.

Counter-points:
1) 350-million competitor pool vs. 7 billion competitor pool
2) The Chinese don't compete in Bianchi Cup, the Masters, or the Sportsman's Team Challenge

I seem to recall at one point, some US IPSC shooters were given a chance to try some ISSF events (Rapid Fire, maybe others). Was Doug Koenig among them? How did he do?

sparky wrote: I seem to recall at one point, some US IPSC shooters were given a chance to try some ISSF events (Rapid Fire, maybe others). Was Doug Koenig among them? How did he do?

Doug Koenig did not participate in that venture. I heard second-hand that he was focusing on making a living for himself and his family as a professional shooter, which I respect.

Bruce Piatt (2015 NRA World champ and previous Bianchi Cup champ) had previously shot a rapid fire qualifier, finished 2nd, and made the national team. This was back when they shot 22 short.
I don't know the year or remember the details, but he crossed over for a bit.

sparky wrote:I seem to recall at one point, some US IPSC shooters were given a chance to try some ISSF events (Rapid Fire, maybe others). Was Doug Koenig among them? How did he do?

I have heard that story also from Keith Sanderson (men's 25-meter International Rapid Fire). I don't recall the IPSC shooters name.

Murph wrote:Bruce Piatt (2015 NRA World champ and previous Bianchi Cup champ) had previously shot a rapid fire qualifier, finished 2nd, and made the national team. This was back when they shot 22 short.
I don't know the year or remember the details, but he crossed over for a bit.

And the details that you do remember have been fuzzied by time, and are thus a bit of an exaggeration :)

Bruce was very good and probably showed the most promise. I don't believe he made the National Team, nor placed as high as 2nd at any national-level competition, but he did work his way into the 570s and was maybe top 5 at USASNC, IIRC.

SPPcoach wrote:

sparky wrote:I seem to recall at one point, some US IPSC shooters were given a chance to try some ISSF events (Rapid Fire, maybe others). Was Doug Koenig among them? How did he do?

I have heard that story also from Keith Sanderson (men's 25-meter International Rapid Fire). I don't recall the IPSC shooters name.

Bruce Piatt, Todd Jarrett, Don Golembieski, Bruce Gray, Jerry Miculek, Matt Burket(?); some others I'm surely forgetting.

john bickar wrote:And to stir the pot further:

Jin or Kim Rhode? (TBD, but Jin slightly)

I have to go with Kim Rhode on this now, and not just as an unabashed USA homer.

Kim's accomplishments are, likewise, otherworldly.

If the thread allows for personal, entirely subjective criteria, then -

sparky wrote:...Brian Zins has shown a longer period of dominance, but only in one discipline (Bullseye).

I've taken the Zins/Moody BE class multiple times. I'm kinda in awe of the guy. But he's not Ralf.

Ralf Schumann

He's my sentimental favorite simply because of his wife. When he won in Atlanta, I sat next to her. I had no idea who she was or what I was watching. She took pity on me and very kindly gave me a play-by-play commentary. She seemed to enjoy teaching the noob what was happening.

I'll always be grateful for that experience.

kevinweiho wrote:

renzo wrote:How do these people do?? I mean, where do they find the drive to stay on the top after fulfilling what is almost every shooter´s dream?

The shooting sports are dominated by asian and caucasian people, I think it's in their genetics, just like basketball is dominated by blacks/afro-americans...

I'm pretty sure that the OP answered his own question;They (champions) find (through dedication and time and study of their sport) the drive to stay on top. Nothing at all to do with genetics. I'm pretty sure that the human genome project did not identify the shooting sports, or basketball, judo, or javelin gene. Having said that, being tall doesn't hurt one's basketball game, but height is not a trait exclusive to "blacks/afro-americans." On a side note, is kevinweiho in his 70s or 80s? Who uses the term "afro-americans" in the 21st century?


cricman

I think "cricman" has his share of truth, although I believe (having been a competitive sportman in water sports) thet genetics may have a substantial importance, i.e. you have never seen (or I've never heard of) a succesful black swimner or waterpolo player, and this could be due to physical abilities (or disabilities) pertaining a specific race.

On the other hand, until a not very distant time, basketball was dominated by them. I still remember the adage "white man can't jump".

Speed track disciplines could be other example, in both sexes, and heavyweight male boxing another.

But this is as much as I concur, as I was talking about the psychological facet of the game and their view of life accomplishments.

Mark Spitz set a distinct record, and retired. Michael Phelps surpassed it eight years ago, and is still in the top game.

renzo wrote:I think "cricman" has his share of truth, although I believe (having been a competitive sportman in water sports) thet genetics may have a substantial importance, i.e. you have never seen (or I've never heard of) a succesful black swimner or waterpolo player, and this could be due to physical abilities (or disabilities) pertaining a specific race.

On the other hand, until a not very distant time, basketball was dominated by them. I still remember the adage "white man can't jump".

Speed track disciplines could be other example, in both sexes, and heavyweight male boxing another.

But this is as much as I concur, as I was talking about the psychological facet of the game and their view of life accomplishments.

Mark Spitz set a distinct record, and retired. Michael Phelps surpassed it eight years ago, and is still in the top game.

Hey Renzo, my response was not directed at your valid question, but rather the odd response by kevinweiho. Because you have made a response to my post, I will respond in kind:


I have heard of a successful black swimmer. Simone Manuel, a black female, just set an Olympic record and won a gold medal (100M Freestyle) this Olympics. Not a dynasty, but it is a start in getting pre-conceived notions about black swimmers to change. Regarding water polo, that just sounds exclusive, since you have to join a club or compete in college. Why didn't you use the Equestrian events as an even weaker example of inability (or as you call it "disability" based on race, since you won't see black riders and horse owners at the Olympics (or in any other venue, for that matter.) Is it because of race or access? Don't get me wrong, genetics, especially regarding musculature, height/limb proportion, fast/slow twitch muscle ratio, inherent O2 uptake ability are genetic and important. I would not call a genetic advantage, as it relates to race or ethnicity "substantial." Measurable, of course, but this would require a lot of real empirical data. Getting into a swimming program with a coach 12 months of the year is a first step in developing talent and being succesful. Getting access to a shooting or archery program with a coach and proper equipment is a first step in developing talent and being successful. In the U.S., not everyone has the access that certain socio-economic strata enjoy. In other countries, the state can provide that access to their homogenous population, regardless of socio-economic rank. I still contend that access and personal drive has as much to do with success by certain ethnic groups or races than genetics.


cricman

Cricman:

I fully agree, and I didnt feel your response in any way inadequate, we are just trying to elaborate into questions whose answers are (at least for me) far beyond my knowledge.

I understand your argument, but I think my awe rest best expressed in the last phrase of my previous post comparing Spitz with Phelps, and using them as examples of two extremely succesful sport stars with very different attitude to success.

You can relate them also to sports car racing: there are lots of pilopts that once achieved the summit and then considered his goal accomplished, and lots of others that went into long careers, even dwindling into a "relative" obscurity in results.

Obviously, this can become a very subjective matter!!!

Cricman wrote:

kevinweiho wrote:

renzo wrote:How do these people do?? I mean, where do they find the drive to stay on the top after fulfilling what is almost every shooter´s dream?

The shooting sports are dominated by asian and caucasian people, I think it's in their genetics, just like basketball is dominated by blacks/afro-americans...

I'm pretty sure that the OP answered his own question;They (champions) find (through dedication and time and study of their sport) the drive to stay on top. Nothing at all to do with genetics. I'm pretty sure that the human genome project did not identify the shooting sports, or basketball, judo, or javelin gene. Having said that, being tall doesn't hurt one's basketball game, but height is not a trait exclusive to "blacks/afro-americans." On a side note, is kevinweiho in his 70s or 80s? Who uses the term "afro-americans" in the 21st century? cricman

No, I am in my late 30’s. What would you call black people, or the correct term is African Americans? I just gave my personal opinion, if you don’t agree or think it’s incorrect, you don’t have to assume that I am a geezer or weirdo.

Here’s an interesting read:
https://www.verywell.com/how-genetics-i ... ty-3120100