TargetTalk

The TOZ is not a copy of a Hammerli by any means. The trigger (the best part) is unique. It can be rotated 360 degrees and pushed to fire in wherever direction it is set. If Hammerli had copied the TOZ, they might still be in business today. Efrim Khaiyadurov (I hope I got the spelling right) was an excellent machinist, as well as an excellent shot (and the designer of the TOZ-35, the TOZ-36 as well as other very effective competition guns; IJ-Khr 30, and 31 etc.).
The Martini action appears to be an improved version of the Peabody action, but I don't know if Martini actually had seen a Peabody action before he came up with his. If he did, then Peabody (an American) would be the granddaddy of many of the finest 50 m pistols (as well as many BSA rifles).

stephen_maly wrote: The Martini action appears to be an improved version of the Peabody action, but I don't know if Martini actually had seen a Peabody action before he came up with his.

He did, Martini improved on the Peabody design. The first rifles using it were known as Martini-Peabodies.

stephen_maly wrote:...If Hammerli had copied the TOZ, they might still be in business today......

It would be a lame bet to claim the TOZ design was the reason for a management change at Hammerli. Consider labor and manufacturing costs for a very high quality, low volume niche product.

Over the years I've had several TOZ-35s and 35Ms, and a Hammerli 160 and FP60, and have fired tens of thousands of rounds through them. All of them have been precision shooters. Comparing them, the Hammerli's have been much more pleasant to use. A Yugo and a Porsche will both get you from point A to point B, but the Porsche is a better drive.

slofyr wrote: Over the years I've had several TOZ-35s and 35Ms, and a Hammerli 160 and FP60, and have fired tens of thousands of rounds through them. All of them have been precision shooters. Comparing them, the Hammerli's have been much more pleasant to use. A Yugo and a Porsche will both get you from point A to point B, but the Porsche is a better drive.

That's a bit of a dumb comparison. Clearly the Porsche would win a race against a Yugo almost regardless of the quality of the driver, but with Free Pistol, it's almost all down to the "driver".

j-team wrote:

slofyr wrote:

stephen_maly wrote: Over the years I've had several TOZ-35s and 35Ms, and a Hammerli 160 and FP60, and have fired tens of thousands of rounds through them. All of them have been precision shooters. Comparing them, the Hammerli's have been much more pleasant to use. A Yugo and a Porsche will both get you from point A to point B, but the Porsche is a better drive.

That's a bit of a dumb comparison. Clearly the Porsche would win a race against a Yugo almost regardless of the quality of the driver, but with Free Pistol, it's almost all down to the "driver".

I'll second that, whatever sport that requires skill and coordination I always say "it's the Indian, not the arrow"...equipment is of secondary importance.

The late great Don Nygord, who once held the U.S. free pistol record, was world champion in air pistol, and was a pretty good gunsmith as well, greatly preferred the TOZ compared to any model of Hammerli. His main reason was the TOZ trigger, which as has been pointed out, is nothing like the Hammerli triggers. I don't think he would have liked the Yugo comparison, BTW.

j-team wrote:...Clearly the Porsche would win a race against a Yugo almost regardless of the quality of the driver, but with Free Pistol, it's almost all down to the "driver".

I said, "the Hammerli's have been much more pleasant to use."

In a race, yes, the Porsche would always win over a Yugo, but I was referring to the tactile feedback. A Porsche is a lot more enjoyable to drive, as is a Hammerli to shoot. The build quality of the TOZ is a bit underwhelming and inconsistent compared to other FPs.

slofyr wrote: The build quality of the TOZ is a bit underwhelming and inconsistent compared to other FPs.

Perhaps I'd forgive you if you likened the Toz to a Ferarri with a bad paint job rather than a Yugo. Because there nothing wrong with the parts that count in a Toz, the trigger is better (sorry, it just is) and the barrels will equal or better the groups of any other Free Pistols (even current ptoduction ones). It's just some areas of extenal cosmetic finish that they lack behind a Hammerli, none of which hold it back on performance where it counts.