TargetTalk

rmarsh wrote:
In my opinion, and it is just that, my opinion......... Of the three things mentioned above, Equipment - Coaching - Dedication, the most important is coaching. Why? You can have $10,000 worth of gear and if you don't know how to use it, you will get beat by the 10 year old little girl next to you with a Crossman Challenger. If you have used or so, so equipment but really know how to use it, you can still do very well in many competitions. Winning (or at least doing well) is addictive. Early success leads to dedication. From my first years journey in this sport, I would say if you have 3 grand you can spend, spend half on some used equipment and the other half on some good coaching, you will be far better off than spending the entire amount on a top notch air rifle your kid don't know how to shoot. That's my 2 cents for what it is worth!

Great statement there...

And just to clarify, I wasn't trying to knock any coach/clubs that charge...I was just stating that our club doesn't and that lets some kids shoot who otherwise couldn't. I am certainly willing to pay for camps, and I would certainly be willing to pay for one on one coaching, if she sticks with it and is at a point where she needs it. We are both really new to this, and are just getting our feet wet at this point.

There have been a number of good points brought up here by mbradley, johral and rmarsh

First it might do well to return to mbradley’s discussion about perceived worth, if the instruction is offered free of charge it is not perceived as being of value while if there is a charge it is. Impressing importance of something on students of any discipline can be tough, but I know I for one started taking my education much more seriously when I started paying for it, I could also see the return on investment in a better paying job when I was done. I expect the same would apply to shooting.

Now the value thing goes both ways, both the student or athlete and the administrator. I used to donate significant amounts of time to junior shooting programs. In many cases my efforts were appreciated I also remember instances where I was treated abusively by administrators apparently because they did not perceive of my contribution as having value. For the cases where I was being treated abusively only after I left did I get the “Oh well, shucks, I’m sorry, I mean I did not really mean to say that etc…” But by that point it is too late to really fix anything.

I wonder if I was getting paid for my services if I would have been treated the same way? Somehow I doubt it.

Johral is absolutely correct, the parent of a J3 should not be expected to open their billfold and start dispensing large amounts of $$$, however at the beginning level it would not be unreasonable to charge $10 for an afternoon of equipment use, ammunition, basic instruction and supervision by someone at the level of a Certified Rifle Instructor. Of the $10 some cut goes to the club for expenses and coffers and some cut goes to the instructor. Assuming the junior made it to every weekend that is $40 to $50 per month. If a parent cannot afford that much then unfortunately, this is no sport for them or their child because as rmarsh has pointed out, this sport is expensive.

It is the closing statement by rmarsh that pulls some of this discussion full circle, three ingredients, equipment, coaching and dedication. I am always impressed by the dedication that youngsters can put into their passions, be it shooting, or any other sport or activity. For those that have the dedication there will be some percentage of parents that either can or will figure out how to get their junior decent equipment. The thing that continues to be in short supply is quality coaching, of which there might be more available if coaches could be or were modestly compensated for their time.

I think it is the nature of most people to want to get something for nothing. Hence they do not want to pay for coaching.
Also most guys are gear guys. Hard gear is more attractive than soft training.

I think for a club environment, with multiple shooters, I feel that it is reasonable to ask for a modest payment. What is $20 a session? That is like going to a movie + snacks.

If the gear and ammo/pellets are being provided, part of the session charge is rental (someone had to buy the gun that is being used and the range facility) and ammo fee. And some part of this should be given to the coach to at least cover his "out of pocket expenses." Providing the pellets helps the shooter by preventing the parents from buying "Brand X" cheap pellets, that shoot really lousey groups.

And we have not considered certain stuff like shoes, pants and jacket that can't be rented, but has to be purchased by the shooter, or a practical alternative found and bought.

IMHO, the idea of "try before you buy" is a nice idea, but in practice it won't work for most people. The new shooter NEEDS help to start off on the right foot, so his experience is good. When I first started shooting 10m AR, my target looked like a shotgun hit. I even missed the target paper. I DESPERATELY NEEDED COACHING, just to get all my shots inside the 1-ring. So like me if the kid does not know how to stand and hold the rifle, their shots will be all over the target. A bad experience leaving a sour taste in their mouth for the sport. Like me, you want to quickly get the kids shots inside the 1-ring, then head towards the black. That would be a good experience. So that initial series of coaching sessions where the basics are taught is VERY VERY important and worth the cost.

The concept of "try before you buy" is flawed. It depends on the user having a basic level of knowledge so that he can indeed try the product. If you don't know how to use it, you NEED training on how to use the product before you can begin to try it. I ran into this in the software world, where some people want to "play with the product" before buying it. But in order to even "play with it," they would need days or weeks of training. Without the training, they would simply be bumbling around and probably getting an even worse impression of the software.

BTW this is very similar to learning to golf. If you don't know how to golf, you go to the driving range
- you buy a pair of golf shoes $$ (While there may be, I have not seen a driving range where they rent shoes.)
- you rent clubs $$ (or you buy your own set of clubs $$$)
- you pay for the range balls $
- you pay a pro to teach you $$$ (You don't expect to get someone to teach you to golf for free. And if you think learning to shoot takes a long time and is hard, try learning to golf.)

BTW, if you don't golf, the 3-Stooges commedy is not far off the mark. Completely missing the ball when you swing is not an unusual event for a new golfer.

Some people will learn fine in a group environment with shared instruction and coaching, others need the extra time/attention of extended one-on-one help. Group sessions are less costly than individual sessions for the obvious reason, you have several shooters sharing the cost of the session. The trade off is, group coaching reduces cost but also reduces individual coaching time. Once you get to the point of needing individual coaching you have to recognize that you have to foot the cost of the entire session yourself.

As was mentioned, like shooting, certain sports are expensive and there is no getting around that. Either the initial cost of the equipment (golf clubs, racing bicycle, parachute, etc.) or the ongoing cost of the consumables (golf balls, etc) and event fees/rentals (golf green fees, parachute airplane fees, water ski boat, etc).

A few points from a coach/instructor view.

New shooters need an instructor rather than a coach. Instructors teach folks with little or no prior experience the basics, so the shooter can then progress at their own pace. This would be similar to going to the golf driving range. Unfortunately we have very few ranges where someone can walk in, rent, borrow, or immediately purchase equipment for learning the basics. Also, few would do well purchasing a complete high quality set of gear to get started, as the equipment itself can cause problems, due to the hugh variety of adjustments, for new shooters.

Coaches work with shooters who have learned the basics of firing good (relatively) shots, and who want to continue with the sport, and progress to higher levels. Now we get into better quality equipment, and especially the mental training.

I have decided to instruct and coach only on a "free" basis, due to liability exposures. I've lived and worked in two (Western) states where the liability problem is reduced or eliminated for non-paid performance. Purchase of a coaches liability policy is $300 through NRA, and it is insufficient coverage (this statement is based on my 33 years as an insurance agent, helping folks protect their assets from liability claims).

An occasional $20 to $50 income would not begin to cover the cost of liability insurance, much less other expenses. It is now a 35 mile round trip to the range, so costs of gas alone begins to add up.

I have always considered the out of pocket expenses as part of my "dues paid" in return for all those who taught me. My "pay" comes in seeing those I work with become not only better shooters, but with many they become real advocates for shooting. Also, watching a young shooter change from a "kid with a rifle" to a self-confident young man or woman ready to take on the world, because of the lessons learned in shooting, always warms my heart.

My easiest coaching has come with the few adults I've worked with, because of their desire to get to higher levels, and their prior lifetime experiences with self-discipline needed to be a good shooter. The most rewarding comes from seeing the growth of youngsters, not only those who have become champions but those who have shot for a short time but learned that they CAN achieve goals they have set, most of whom will continue the traditions of the sport long after I'm gone.

Many folks don't get into coaching because of the costs (NRA/USAS certification classes, on going training, etc), and perceived lack of return on their investment. One needs to look at return on investment from these other standpoints, to see it is a valuable position which returns more to the coach than they could ever earn in money.

Pat,
To be fair I think most people don't appreciate the difference between an instructor and a coach. And given the lack of coaches, most of us act in a role of instructor and coach, depending on the audience.

I have no idea about the liability issue, but I do know that our governing body insures our qualified coaches. In addition our laws are I believe changing such that negligence is required for liability cases to be proven, but I digress.

Coaching will only ever appeal to a small minority of people. In my experience the same type of people who will act as volunteer club officials or range officers. Those people who enjoy helping out and do it for the personal 'buzz' of knowing you're helping others.

Rob.

Pat McCoy wrote:Many folks don't get into coaching because of the costs (NRA/USAS certification classes, on going training, etc), and perceived lack of return on their investment. One needs to look at return on investment from these other standpoints, to see it is a valuable position which returns more to the coach than they could ever earn in money.

To me Pat, while I certainly believe that this perception is widely held, it is still distressing to me.

I guess I was "lucky" in the fact I came into this sport as a 4-H volunteer who absolutely knew that I knew nothing.
My first lessons in the sport were here on TT. I was directed to a local coach who invited me to JROTC JMIC training and told me not to buy anything yet w/o chatting with him (too late for that advice!).

At that time USAS/CMP/NRA were just coming into the teaching phase of the new Level-1,-2 & -3 coach schools. He pushed me hard into "investing" my time and some cash into taking these courses. These were the best thing that happened to me in terms of:
1) Knowledge of the subject
2) Identifying some of the best resources in print to study
3) Identifying the ASEP classes for Level-2 that were great in terms of learning about the mental and physical aspects of the age of kids I'd be working with over the next (so far 10) years. Probably the best is the self-inspection part of the coaching game.
4) Rubbing elbows and meeting the very talented instructors/coaches who teach these courses. My Level-3 instructor was Marcus Raab, now the National Coach, who has tolerated my questions (and comments) over the many years since ... questions that have been answered to the benefit of our shooters and program.
5) Developing the friendships & networking with other coaches that I've been able to work and learn from in the past years.

I actively and enthusiastically encourage those who come into our program and those that are looking to develop their own programs to AT LEAST invest the time and money involved to take a Level-1 class.
Whether it be Rifle, Shotgun or Pistol.

To get back on topic ... My club is in one of the poorest states (NM) in just about the poorest county (Valencia) ... I do everything I can (including volunteering) to make our program as "no cost" as we can. As much as I get irritated by the NRA Grant Store, I'm thankful that we've pretty much been able to do a no cost project for the kids in our county. They pay entry fees to matches and that's about it. If they want to move on, then the "coaching" is still by volunteers, but they have to but the more advanced equipment themselves.

Pat brings up a few points that have not been given much play up to this point: First that coaching is not simply a business transaction, an exchange of cash for goods and second in today's litigious society a coach, paid or not, needs to consider their risk exposure.

With regard to the fact that coaching is not simply a business transaction, for those who work with juniors on a really close level you need to be prepared to help them with far more than just shooting. Questions about friendships, jobs, college selection, college majors, potential careers... nothing is off the table. Some will be just kids you knew others juniors I coached I am still in touch with decades later. Yes, this can be very rewarding. This is the same reason the some career teachers have given for sticking with a profession where they are poorly paid and often overworked.

The flip side to this is how much time and talent does a person have to just "give" if it is going to take away from their own family? After 15 years of coaching for free and a few instances where I was being treated poorly by people in administrative control I came to the conclusion that the calculus had turned negative and it was time to quit giving away my time and talent.

Looking at the liability and certification issues, this can be significant and today and important issue. As alluded to, Laws vary from state to state. In some cases if you are volunteering you cannot be sued, in other cases even if you are volunteering, unless you are certified you can be sued. I can also say that if you are volunteering you my not be able to be sued you do not have some of the protections normally afforded an individual under civil law, so that is a two way street.

If you are charging for time and service it is best to have some kind of liability insurance, just in case. I am not in the insurance industry so it would be tough for me to comment on how much is necessary. I can say for my small consulting LLC insurance costs me just shy of $300 per year. Charging for coaching, yes, I believe everything should be cranked into the equation, cost of gas, cost of certification, insurance, cost of earplugs...

Several of the posts on this thread indicate some level of willingness to pay for qualified coaching. There is also the recognition that depending on the level of the shooter the coach can be at a different level as well. The issue becomes getting enough people willing to pay such that coaches could at least break even.

While there are some folks who are willing to put forth significant personal expense to support programs in their area, those folks are few and far between. Going back to the premise Col. Pullum made 32 years ago now, the US as a nation might have more shooting coaches available if they did not have to pay to coach. As one of my old professors used to say, "Long term: That business model does not work."

Cheers,
'Dude

So how much is Troy/Lanny Basham an hour?....or perhaps a day? might help those of us who are looking for a coach,or clinic in the south Any contact info would be great. Thanks so much.

I think you will find their fees are listed on their web sight.Well they were a while ago.Have a look....then go pour yourself a stiff gin....reflect on what you've just seen in front of you and go to Plan B!
To be fair a competent coach is worth his/her/their weight in gold but there does come a time when I would have to ask myself if the money being asked was fair and a worthwhile investment for the average man.
Having said that if there was a training/coaching programme being offered that had equipment set up,position training and the all important head stuff rolled into one Id be lining up.

Ok, Troy & Lanny have been brought up so I will respond. First, Lanny does not do any rifle coaching at all other than the generic Mental Management program he does.

Troy has a very few individual rifle coaching clients. He works full time at Mental Management so his time available for coaching is limited. Because of this thread I have pressed him to decide if he wants to expand his coaching business.

He is willing to take on one or two additional full one on one clients. Anyone interested will need to contact him for price and arrangements. Expect to quoted up to $250 an hour, less for full day. He asked that only seriously interested persons contact him.

A second way he is willing to coach is a less expensive route. He recommends a full day, at least half a day to get positions and basics established. Following that, he will do reviews of pictures or videos and phone consultation.

Anyone who is seriously intersted can easily find Troy with a search, or you can PM me. I don't want to be seen as advertising for him on this site so I will not get into more detail here. I do not represent Troy in any way. He is a simply friend and my daughter's coach.

Ok, Troy & Lanny have been brought up so I will respond. First, Lanny does not do any rifle coaching at all other than the generic Mental Management program he does.

Troy has a very few individual rifle coaching clients. He works full time at Mental Management so his time available for coaching is limited. Because of this thread I have pressed him to decide if he wants to expand his coaching business.

He is willing to take on one or two additional full one on one clients. Anyone interested will need to contact him for price and arrangements. Expect to quoted up to $250 an hour, less for full day. He asked that only seriously interested persons contact him.

A second way he is willing to coach is a less expensive route. He recommends a full day, at least half a day to get positions and basics established. Following that, he will do reviews of pictures or videos and phone consultation.

Anyone who is seriously intersted can easily find Troy with a search, or you can PM me. I don't want to be seen as advertising for him on this site so I will not get into more detail here. I do not represent Troy in any way. He is a simply friend and my daughter's coach.

dontshootcritters wrote:To be fair a competent coach is worth his/her/their weight in gold but there does come a time when I would have to ask myself if the money being asked was fair and a worthwhile investment for the average man.
Having said that if there was a training/coaching programme being offered that had equipment set up,position training and the all important head stuff rolled into one Id be lining up.

To be even fairer, you can quite happily go your whole shooting life with no coaching whatsoever - most shooters do. If however you want to go to the top then you won't do it without one. So the choice is yours. Decide what you want from your shooting and how much you want it, then go get it.

Rob.

'Coaching' can be divided into categories:
- basic (safety, equipment, hold, position, breathing, sighting, trigger pull, follow-through, etc.)
- assessment and training programme design
- mentoring; often overlooked but essential
- specialist (psychology, physical conditioning, medical, etc.)

All of these involve time, effort, and travel expenses from the 'coach/es' involved.
Each trip to the range to coach costs our household $20 to $30 just in travel costs; if I am going to the range anyhow, the travel costs are shrugged off, but to properly coach/mentor a shooter means I am pulling cash out of the household budget for each session.
At the specialist/elite end, add professional fees paid by somebody, or donated by the specialist, and travel unless the shooter is lucky enough to be in the nearby area.

Somebody 'pays' somewhere along the line.

This year is the first time I have ever been asked what my coaching fees are. A new shooter to the club came in and her parents expected to pay fees. In previous years they had paid fees for hockey, soccer, and dance. They were amazed to find we didn't charge.

I figure I get ya in the end *wink*, when we get you to nationals, coaches expenses are fully paid for in the club. This is done through fund raising and the like.

From the coaching side, our club is lucky in that we have multiple coaches to work with around 20 shooters. I know we also have shooters that could never afford the fees a coach would be charging. These shooters work hard on fundraising and never miss an event to do so. Parents for these shooters also help do range maintenance, equipment repairs, scoring, and are there at practices to help in any way possible. I always know the range will be clean and ready for the next day. They are invaluable to the program. I wouldn't dream of charging those parents a fee for my coaching time. Wonderfully, many of those parents are now learning more about the sport as well, this leads to more hands in line that can help shooters and coaches identify basic needs and help shooters attain goals.