TargetTalk

luftskytter wrote:Without making any claims, what if we think outside the box?

Imagine grip pressure from all fingers including trigger finger, increasing during the shot. Doing this slowly without jerking while keeping the sights on target would make the gun go off nice and smooth without thinking of isolating anything. It's not hard to do, and seems to work.

I haven't really tried it extensively with a handgun yet, but used a similar technique with a compound bow and release many years ago. Woerked fine, but with bows and rifles the aiming is taken care of by the other arm.

What do you think?
Anybody see a good reason why it would be wrong?

It works, and it can work especially well in practice where you are under no stress. The problem is when you get under pressure during a match, if you have a complex shot process more things can go wrong. The stress can cause you to start with a tighter grip than usual, and by the time the shot goes off you have held too long and are over gripping the gun. Once you have lost confidence in your ability to execute, by having a bad shot, your plan and your training will go out the window as you convince yourself that there is something wrong with your hold that day. It snowballs from there.

Only another observation, but referring back to FredB's post in which he recounted his encounter with a hand specialist and the "inverted" finger grip, I was reading the interviews on Pilk Guns and saw the grip that Yifu Wang has on his (I think) air pistol: third photo (http://www.pilkguns.com/intyw.shtml). It looks very much like he has significant pressure on his thumb. All I've read suggests that the thumb should just lie alongside the pistol.

Different strokes for different folks.

Yup, that's thumb pressure alright. Oh well, he's doing it wrong. ;) Whatever works for you is what's right, and finding your way towards that kind of knowledge, of what is truly right for you, is a combination of intelligence, knowledge of other's techniques, and self-aware training towards discovery of the perfect combination. Then again there are those for whom rigid adherence to a pre-defined tradition is the only way. Not a lot of innovation arises from that sort of approach, but it can and does often work very well.

Gerard wrote:Yup, that's thumb pressure alright. Oh well, he's doing it wrong. ;) Whatever works for you is what's right, and finding your way towards that kind of knowledge, of what is truly right for you, is a combination of intelligence, knowledge of other's techniques, and self-aware training towards discovery of the perfect combination. Then again there are those for whom rigid adherence to a pre-defined tradition is the only way. Not a lot of innovation arises from that sort of approach, but it can and does often work very well.

Great post ! And as you say what works for you is what's right. Most high level shooters that do something very different will have arrived there as a result of iterative changes and evaluation. Don't also forget the pictures you see are a snapshot in time. You will often find that wasn't the final configuration. But again most importantly just because it worked for them, doesn't mean it will work for you.

Rob.

I read a quote somewhere from a great (*see note below*) air pistol shooter somewhere, perhaps on the Pilkguns pages. The guy was asked by different young shooters on the same day whether he was a) using a tight grip - to which he answered "yes" - or a relaxed grip - to which he also answered "yes." Another fellow, overhearing both these exchanges, asked why he had apparently mislead one or the other. The answer was something along the lines doinWhat would be the point in telling either what I am doing? Each must find his own process.' Of course I am butchering the story with my awful memory, but something along those lines, and it makes sense. No magic tip from a master is going to solve a shooter's problems. It is a complex, time-consuming path we walk in hope of arriving one day at a sort of shooting nirvana, where 10's will just flow without struggle. It would be disappointing if a mere trick such as 'squeeze with the thumb's were the solution.

In my business of violin craft, I am constantly shown articles by enthusiastic, breathless musicians, where some scientist or technician has 'discovered the secret of Stradivari.' As though the brilliant career of a master of such exquisite and subtle skills and taste, who apprenticed for 30 years before even using his own name in an instrument, could be reduced to a mere trick. It's embarrassing to hear people so easily convinced by these con men such as Nagyvary. But certain lazy people in whatever trade crave for such easy shortcuts I prefer learning by masses of study, by intuition, by patient practice, in hopes of 'arriving' somewhere meaningful some day. Shooting is such a journey.

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EDIT - added the following information thanks to a PM from Renzo

Alexey Gutschkin (Gold in FP, OG Rome 1960, OR and WR) is quoted as saying that by the famous Anatoly Poddubny in his paper "The Vital Problems of Pistol Shooting" ( Part 2, page 3 ).

Thank you for all the advice and the enlightening discussion. So, basically I'm not necessarily doing anything wrong and may find my optimum grip at a little higher pressure than I always thought to be "The Expert Advice". Anyway, I'm nowhere near advanced enough that I could say I have found the best technique for myself and must stay open for advice and continue experimentation along with training.

Mika

Damn it, Gerard! You've let the cat out of the bag with your comments about Nagyvary.

Now everyone is going to want to travel to Venice to soak their grips and treat them with shrimp shells.

I was hoping you'd keep this esoteric technical data just between us. We need the edge!

Hey, it's fermentation in brackish water silly. No, wait, it's baking! No, that's not it... how about silicate impregnation? For my part there'll be no shrimp-stink on my grips. YUCK!

I reread this thread earlier today and while I've been progressively tightening my grip recently, (with mixed/inconsistent results) I then spent a session with a much more relaxed grip. Big improvement with a more relaxed pressure. I think it was Rob that mentioned (sic)"with correct trigger control it doesn't matter how tight you grip is". That seems to hold true for me. I had more consistent 9's &10's, less shake/sway, and even when I flubbed my trigger pull, the bad shots didn't go so far off as before. Of course one session (it was a longer session than normal because of the improvement - hard to stop when you're out shooting yourself) is just that, but I'm certainly going to try to cultivate this looser grip.

What we see here is that grip pressure is several different things:

How much pressure, hard or loose.

Progressive, increasing pressure, may be hard or loose......

What fingers to use?

Thumb pressure: right or wrong?
I have had a condition of slight tremor in my RH thumb lately.
Old age catching up maybe; there are other symptoms too...
Seems avoiding thumb pressure is now a good idea for me to avoid the shakes. I've applied thumb pressure without ill effect before, but recent shooting shows I now seem to get a benefit from avoiding it. Guess it simply boils down to what gives you personally a steady hold without finger interaction. You just have to figure that out for yourself.

luftskytter wrote:Guess it simply boils down to what gives you personally a steady hold without finger interaction. You just have to figure that out for yourself.

In adapting over the past month to my Pardini K10 with a size large Rink grip, I've had to make several small changes using a gouge, knife, and scraper. As it's such a nicely carved and stippled grip and made of such a nice piece of walnut, I've been rather cautious in the extent of my carvings. Gradually, it's coming to fit me like a glove as I whittle away areas for my thumb joints and index finger base joint. Tonight after a session of shooting I did what might be the last bit of carving, if for no other reason than that the wood near my finger base joint is now less than 0.5mm thick at the rear corner of the pistol frame mortise, and I'd rather not break through there.

With this last carving tonight I've gone inwards along the whole trigger finger, and especially hollowed out at the base, as I've been finding my preference for finger-on-trigger location to be creeping upwards to match the modifications I've made in height and angle of the trigger itself (some not too tricky metal work, raising the trigger about 3mm and angling it about 15 degrees towards my hand), resulting in increased pressure against the upper grip curves. Not wanted, obviously, if that finger is supposed to be independent. So now I can slip a piece of paper between the grip and my finger all the way to the joint, and joint pressure is minimal. Sometimes simple physical modifications can make a lot of difference in the way the pistol feels. I no longer see the slightest tendency to move to the side when holding the pistol towards the ceiling and repeatedly pressing the trigger, where it had been distinctly moving to the left at the muzzle before these changes and the existing trigger adjustment range was not sufficient to dial that out.