Anonymous wrote:Just give it a break David. Soft caps touching sights are FULLY allowed.
Oh good. I presume then that you can tell us when the ISSF removed or suspended rules 7.6.1.1.8, 7.6.1.2 and 7.6.1.3.
As I previously said, I have looked but can find no record of such a change. I am keen to learn, but would want something a bit more convincing than an anonymous posting just telling me I'm wrong.
Why not just take my word for it and GIVE IT A BREAK FFS!!! Don't you have better things to do? My god... All theese forum know it all people but barely can shoot. How much experience do you have in competetive rifle shooting?
The rules you refer to is about prohibiting extra support to the rifle, ie making it more steadier. Everyone with atleast a few brain cells knows that a soft cap does not offer any support to the rifle. Therefore it is allowed. This phenomenon is called rule interpretation.
Anonymous wrote:Why not just take my word for it and GIVE IT A BREAK FFS!!!
Maybe I would have more respect for your opinion if you bothered to give your name and some justification for your claim.
Anonymous wrote:The rules you refer to is about prohibiting extra support to the rifle, ie making it more steadier. Everyone with atleast a few brain cells knows that a soft cap does not offer any support to the rifle. Therefore it is allowed. This phenomenon is called rule interpretation.
You really don't get it do you. I have absolutely no problem with these specific rules or with rule interpretation in general. The problem is that unless rule interpretations are published by the ISSF then the rules will be applied differently from match to match, as evidenced by the initial post on this thread.
It seems that the judge in that case interpreted "The rifle must not touch, or rest against, any other point or object" to mean exactly what it says, without adding "unless it is a soft cap visor".
Just to add a little oil to the fire:
Pressing the cap or visor to the rear sight can very easely worsen the shot because a little change in pressure tot the cheeckpiece/rifle caused by the cap (beeing hard or soft) changes the amount of jump of the rifle and therefor the POI.
Only if you place the cap against the rifle every time exactly the same place and with the same pressure, the POI will be the same. Move the cap a few millimeters (vertcal or horizontal) and the pressure will change.
The same goes for leaning in prone. Using the sling and leaning the supporting arm on a ledge or a ammo box hidden in the inside of the sleeve of the jacket will cause a change in pressure between shots and the results are far worse then when using the sling only (personal experience!)
As I see discussion is really hot! I would like to explain why I have posted this subject. During one of Polish national competitons one of the referees has pointed this problem. I am also a rifle shooter, however now more a referee (I have honor to be a president of Judges Committee of the Lublin State Shooting Sport Federation). Interpretation of the ISSF Rules is not so simply as David Levene presents. Recently we had a problem with the rule 8.4.2.6.4. If one wants strictly (as David does) read this rule the device for testing trigger weight should be ONLY metal if vertical arm in the tester is used and ONLY rubber if it is horozontal. Looks stupied but there is note (page 346) :" Where figures and tables contain specific information, these have the same authority as the numbered rules". So, I have sent a fax to David Parish (Chairman of the ISSF Technical Committee) asking for INTERPRETATION. And I have received the answer - the pisture gives only indication how it should be used but it does not mean that such restricions are given. BTW clearyfication of this rule is to be given in the forthcoming editions. As we see ISSF rules needs sometimes an INTERPRETATION. It is nothing surprising - rules are published on 570 pages so...
So, should I submit next problem to Mr Parish? I would be grateful for continuing the discussion we have. I do not want bother ISSF officials until I am sure it is really necessary.
Greg wrote:If one wants strictly (as David does) read this rule the device for testing trigger weight should be ONLY metal if vertical arm in the tester is used and ONLY rubber if it is horozontal.
Greg, can I suggest you look at this earlier thread and particularly the second post on the thread. I think you will see that you are wrong on the way I read that rule.
@ Spencer. I know, but Manual for Juries is not part of ISSF Rules. This is "interpretation" as you say. Therefore a correct indication that does not need "interpretation" should be given in ISSF Rules book. And as I know will be given.
@David. Yeah, it was not good example :-) If nobody points the cap problem then nothing changes. Either the rule should be respected or it should be changed if committee finds that touching rear sights with a cap should be allowed. That's all.
It seems to me that the only way to resolve this issue is to submit the question, citing the rules and including the pictures showing apparent violations, to ISSF, and see what they say. All our debate has no way of resolving the issue.
RN
Anonymous wrote:Just give it a break David. Soft caps touching sights are FULLY allowed.
Oh good. I presume then that you can tell us when the ISSF removed or suspended rules 7.6.1.1.8, 7.6.1.2 and 7.6.1.3.
As I previously said, I have looked but can find no record of such a change. I am keen to learn, but would want something a bit more convincing than an anonymous posting just telling me I'm wrong.
Why not just take my word for it and GIVE IT A BREAK FFS!!! Don't you have better things to do? My god... All theese forum know it all people but barely can shoot. How much experience do you have in competetive rifle shooting?
The rules you refer to is about prohibiting extra support to the rifle, ie making it more steadier. Everyone with atleast a few brain cells knows that a soft cap does not offer any support to the rifle. Therefore it is allowed. This phenomenon is called rule interpretation.
Well the ISSF have now clarified the position. See the last bullet point of this announcement.
The ISSF should be embarrassed by the above pictures posted on their site.
I have very little experience working national matches, but last year at the USAS junior nationals, we were enforcing this rule. I don't want to be placed in the position to determine what is considered a soft cap.
The cap touching the site can help the shooter repeat his head position, though I'd be concerned that an inconsistent pressure would affect the shot.
No one ever thought that jackets would develop into Full Body Support Suits from the old 1960's TENEX one layer cotton jacket. It has been an incremental "improvement" over the years to where we are now. ISSF have been battling for years to figure out ways to ensure technological improvments do not detract from the sport. That is NOT to say that tech advances are not good. eg better ammo, rifles etc. But the creep is the hard part to police. Thus it is with caps/headgear now. It would not be too difficult to "build" a cap that significantly increases it's stiffness while keeping to the letter of the rules. It would be quit easy to ensure it was of such a size that it may provide a modicum of support in the right way to the benefit of the shooter. There is no way of policing it therefore the easy way is to say that headgear shall not touch the rifle.
It is similar to the rule that the sling may not touch any other part of the rifle except the attachment point.
Lets consider this......a shooting position is constructed physically based on points of reference by a shooter. In the physical sense this can mean point of contact that the shooter can feel/sense. :ie the feet, shoulder, hands, elbows, cheek, rib cage/side etc
Physically speaking... adding the cap "touch" adds a point of contact to the mix a point of reference. This contact touch is not support as support is defined in the rules. But the rule designers in the "spirit" of the rules have made it a point to limit the points of contact of the rifle and the shooter and the cap touch should NOT be allowed.
Add that the shooter can "feel" /"sense" the touching of the cap..soft or otherwise as a "part" of their position. It offers repeatablility as previouly stated.
I can't see how a cap can be a point of reference for one's position. I can see how the rear sight can be a point of reference for the proper positioning of one's cap, but not the other way. I know when I get a hair cut anything I wear on my head feels differently. I had a floppy brimmed hat I wore when I shot conventional outdoor position and I adjusted the hat to block light from around the sight, never as a position reference. {FYI I still have my lifetime master card}.
