TargetTalk

For prone shooting the aluminium stock FWB. As you say the metal stock has more adjustment, and you should be able to get a better fit, although you should get someone knowlegable to help you. Stock adjustments are no good if you don't use them properly.

The wood laminate stocked Universal model has a very deep fore-end, which is not so good for prone shooting. The slimmer fore-end of the metal stock will reduce muzzle flip, as your supporting hand is near the bore.

As for the barrel diameter, go for the 24mm if you are comfortabe with the weight. Most adult men will use a 24mm barrel, the extra weight makes it more inert and lessens the effect of twitches. If you are skinny, the 22mm could be an option.

Tim S

One thing you need to look at is if you want to put a sight tube on it. FWB does not make a tube for there smallbore rifles you have to get one made with ANS you can get one vary easily. In my experience the tube can add some points to your score, just something to think about.

<>Brian<>

Metermatch,

Your status speaks for itself but for the rest of us pondlife it really is 99% rifle 1% shooter, particularly if you are talking about a new rifle. I also think that this ammo mathcing nonsense is exactly that. I bet that if you substituted some Eley Standard when a club shooter wasn't looking, he could not tell the difference! For international standard I would conceded that the competitin would be stiff enough for you to want an edge - but I would fight shy of advising a new club shooter to go through this ammo/batch testing rigmarole - waste of time and good money.

If I was to offer any advice to a new shooter, try before you buy, it soulnds as if you can afford to choose the very best but I cannot envisage a demonstrable difference bewteen the rifles already shown to you. IMHO there is nothing but a ciggy paper between them.

If it was me buy anything but an Anschutz - DARE to be different.

Andy C
CUMBRIA

My advise:
Go out and try to hold the alustocked versions of the FWB, Walther and Anschutz in your own hands. If possible in the shooting position with all the gear, but just holding then in your hands will tell you a lot more than reading about it.
When I held the Walther KK200 Alu stock the first time in a gun store I immediately knew this was the one to have, FOR ME. Not for everybody else. So I bought this alu stock in the version that fitted my anschutz barrel and i'm still happy I did. So holding it myself told me in one moment what reading all the magazines and brochures for months could not learn me.

Each make (FWB, Grunig, Ansch, Walther, etc) has it's own shape and feel, pistol grips are different, forestocks are, cheekpieces are. So find what feels good to you.

2mm diference in barrel diameter has little to do with accuracy, but rifle weight and balance have a lot to do with shooting results. So go for a rifle that has the right weight and the balance that matches your way of holding the rifle. I shot a 1813 heavy barrel first, but switched to a 1807 (smaller dia. and shorter) barrel and find the balance and weight fits my shooting positions (I shoot 3P) much better.
If you want more weight you can always add some here and there on barrel or stock.
If you want less weight..... well I guess you're not going to saw off a piece from the front your heavy barrel, or going to get the angle grinder to flute it.

So go to a shop or big match and ask to hold those stocks for a moment. And then you will know what to buy. Barrels can be replaced with better ones if needed when your results rise. But shooting the same stock for years will make your progress faster because you've spent more training time with that stock.

Good luck with your choice, Sven.

Waltherman wrote:I also think that this ammo mathcing nonsense is exactly that. I bet that if you substituted some Eley Standard when a club shooter wasn't looking, he could not tell the difference!

Can't agree there I'm afraid. Try telling that to a club shooter when he has an unexplained 8 in a good card. Thats what you get with untested ammo. Maybe not life or death if its not an Olympic final but we all like to do or best don't we?

Regarding response by Waltherman, I agree a club shooter would be less likely to want to test ammo, but it still is a good idea, as the lower grades of ammo can vary widely. I guess it really is up to the individual as to how well they want to do. If you spend the big bucks for a top rifle, it seems odd to put any old ammo through it. If you are going to do that, save yourself a ton of money and buy a DCM rifle for $250. It is also more than adequatwe for a club shooter .

Jeff

With the price of top ammo its probably actually cheaper (and easier) to match barrelled actions to the ammo as opposed to matching ammo to the barrelled action.

Even for a club shooter it would be wise to test his ammo. I test all the ammo I use, for training as well as for matches. There is a big difference in accuracy between the lots of cheap ammo. (I shoot two ten shot groups at 50 meters (55 yards) with each new lot, so it doesn't cost that much).

The tests tell me two things: 1. If my rifle is still performing okay and 2. How my new training ammo will perform.
I keep some boxes of ammo from my old lots from which I know the performance and run them in the same test as I test my new ammo. This tells me if my rifle is still performing like it used to.

By doing this I can tell if I'm the one making the bad shots or it is my ammo/rifle. Saves me a lot of thoughts about changing my training because of bad shots.

Richard H wrote:With the price of top ammo its probably actually cheaper (and easier) to match barrelled actions to the ammo as opposed to matching ammo to the barrelled action.

Unfortunately not - it seems (from the Eley and Anschutz people that I've talked to) that making smallbore barrels is still partly a black art; the difference between a "good" barrel and a "great" barrel is down to probability theory.

Example: do the top German shooters get someone to pour weeks of loving labour into a single, perfect, barrel; or do they just pick up the best-performing barrel from the production run? They don't call them "selected barrels" for nothing.

The theory that there is some mythical "best ammunition" that is cherry-picked by those "in the know" is false. It's attractive to the conspiracy theorists, but what goes well through my selected barrel may not go well through my wife's selected barrel; we're fortunate enough to live within driving distance of the Eley factory, and have tested ammunition there for the past decade.

Some ammunition just won't go particularly well through a particular rifle; it's why Eley test each batch of ammo through several barrels of different types before they give it a "Tenex" label rather than a "Match" label.

What's more likely to produce bad results is bad storage - if somewhere during transit between the Eley factory and your locker, your ammo has sat in direct sunlight in a metal conatainer, heated up nicely, and cooked for a while at 40C+, then don't be surprised if it doesn't quite perform...

Get several boxes of ammunition, preferably of batches where your supplier has a decent-sized amount. Test it from a rest. If it groups well, buy it; if it doesn't, don't waste your time. If the best-performing ammo is cheap, then that's a bonus.

Richard H wrote:With the price of top ammo its probably actually cheaper (and easier) to match barrelled actions to the ammo as opposed to matching ammo to the barrelled action.

Actually, I've just reread that.

The largest batch size of Eley Tenex that I've seen was on the order of 30,000 rounds or so. That's perhaps two years ammunition for the serious athlete.

Unfortunately, the rifle manufacturers and the ammunition manufacturers aren't the same people (although Eley do some research with Anschutz) so your proposition isn't as easy as it seems.

To add some more option/confusion, have a look at the Bleiker. http://www.bleiker.ch/english/english.htm
A Swiss dark horse in this subject...

Interesting thread. I am in the process of buying a new prone rifle and attended the Sydney World Cup the other day to look at what gear those guys use. I thought you guys might be interested to know that in the final there were I think 4or 5 Bleiker's in various stocks. Maybe a couple of Anschutz including Tom Tamas and a Walther. I was very surprised by the number of Bleiker's. Unfortunately a Bleiker is out of my price range but if you have the money it seems like they should be on the list

The main advantage of the Bleiker smallbore (over the others mentioned here) is the ease of loading because the loading port being closer to the shooter. This allows for loading while staying in position which is a big advantage in keeping NPA.

Some pictures of the Bleiker rifle can be seen at www.ISSF.tv in the video from the 50m prone final at the Bangkok world cup. A good view is at 11 minutes (look at the counter leftside under).

MSNations wrote:To protect myself a little (#2 post)...

For reference, the current Olympic 50m prone record (600/600) is held by Christian Lusch shooting a FWB 2700.

Beware, there's a lot of top shooters shooting Bleiker barrels and actions (handmade swiss masterpieces - about £2000 for barrel) in FWB stocks at the mo, so just cos you see a FWB doesn't necessarily mean....

Going back to an earlier part of this thread for a moment - - - - I had an opportunity to talk to a recent overall national prone champion at Camp Perry recently and was amazed to find out what he does to test ammo. Start out 10-15 lots, shoot 10 shot groups while going though the full range of possible torques (maybe 15 to 40 inch pounds in 5 pound increments) on the action screws. At this point continue with the best 3 to 5 lots. Using the best torque for each lot go through more 10 shot groups in both calm and windy conditions to find if you have a lot that may shoot well in one condition but not the other. Once all this is done pick the best lot, and maybe the second best also, and buy as much as you need for the year. This whole activity could take the better part of a month with several trips to the range each week and could consume well over a 1000 rounds of ammo. It may seem like overkill but it produces outstanding results for him and he is a consistant winner of tournaments throughout each summer. (PS I may not have all the details right but I think I am pretty close).

And does this guy do his testing using a test bench or from the shoulder (using a scope or aperture sights)?

Waltherman wrote:I bet that if you substituted some Eley Standard when a club shooter wasn't looking, he could not tell the difference! For international standard I would conceded that the competitin would be stiff enough for you to want an edge - but I would fight shy of advising a new club shooter to go through this ammo/batch testing rigmarole - waste of time and good money.

For club shooters, I would agree that batch testing is a waste of time. I know at least one scottish squad shooter who just uses off-the-shelf Match and Tenex.
Batch testing will show differences - sometimes quite large differences (relatively) between the best and worst batches, but it's a matter of millimetres, trying to get an edge over the competition, where mm can make and break matches.
As for swapping ammo for Eley Standard, you might get away with it indoors, although you're still at risk of inconsistent rounds/random 8s, but try that outdoors and you're wasting your time. We tell even our freshers to use Match or better outdoors, cos Club or Standard just won't group to be competitive at 100yds or 50m.

I believe PaulB is referring to Paul Gideon. My understanding is that he tests from the prone position.
What is perhaps more amazing is that he has different torque settings for 50m and 100yards. Not only that, but also different settings for iron sights and scope sights!
A lot of work. Is it worth it? Well he won the National Championships at Camp Perry - you decide.

Walter

An Anschutz 2000 series rifle with a long barrel (690mm barrel or longer).

What about the overall quality and life of barrels? in my area, the atmospheric humidity during june-sept is around 80% to 95%, and a few days [4/5] of non oiling my weapon causes rust to form on the barrel and action! i use a Anschuetz 1913 barrel and and have compared a few walthers just being ok in the given condition. i am however convinced my barrel being 'not bad' in shooting ,but i surely doubt its life!
I was convinced that barrels were manufactured for to serve their purpose globally. what say people..........