Taking your grip
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2650 Plus
Taking your grip
The grip is hardest to describe of all the elements involved in shoting the good shot, because it is the most individually taylored act. I started out trying to make the pistol a perfect extension of the major bones in the shooting arm and trying to get a comfortable head position that would place my eye directly over the arm and give me perfect sight allignment. This sounded pretty good until I noticed that my recovery in sustained fire was always to the left of my aiming area, making it necessary to correct the hold on every shot. All of you will clearly recognize the error as being natural point of aim. What to do ? My solution was to move the pistol slightly right in my shooting hand and establish the NPA and at the same time achieve the perfect sight allignment required to shoot tens. Recovery inproved almost at once. How to gain a solid grip on the pistol was the next issue I faced. Going back to the AMU Bible, I formed a V of the four fingers and the thumb. Holding the pistol by the barrel I inserted it into the V, wrapped the bottom fingers around the grip, and pulled the pistol into the pad at the heel of the shooting hand. I made sure that the only part of the pistol being touched by the trigger finger was the trigger and only the trigger. I placed a mirrow beneath the pistol and adjusted the position of the trigger finger until the motion of the part of the finger touching the trigger at the moment of firing was straight back along the axis of the barrel. Guess what ? when I placed the pistol in the firing position the sights were not alligned with my shooting eye., And one more thing if your othorpedic grips don't fit perfectly there is no way you can get a correct grip on your pistol. Out with your dremmel tool and start figuring out what you must remove or add to make your $250 grips work for you instead of against you. Unless you have found a real genius this step is almost sure to be necessary. Some of you may have heard that the little finger causes low shots. Don't believe this nonsense. Low and any where else shots are caused by shooting the pistol when you want it to go off.or by the gripping fingers changing pressure on the grip while the trigger finger is moving. If you are not shooting the orthorpedic grips the changes must still be made, This may require compromises else where in the way you acheive the grip but try not to comprimise the most essential elements. Natural sight allignment, ability to apply smooth steadily increasing pressure straight to the rear on the trigger , achieving a surprise shot. and last [ for sustained fire] perfect recovery, Good Shooting Bill Horton
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Modifying your Grips
Here is an interesting article by Daryl Szarenski on modifying your pistol grips to fit your hand
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YLDTSKmBQ4 ... 20Grip.PDF
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YLDTSKmBQ4 ... 20Grip.PDF
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Sorry, I forgot that you have to register as a member with the Yahoo Free Pistol BB. I have tried attaching a copy, but apparently the file is a little too large for the TT upload protocol.ScottT wrote:I was interested in reading the article, but the link wouldnt work for me.
Only thing I can suggest is to send me an email, or register with the Free Pistol group.
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jacques b gros
- Posts: 174
- Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:54 am
- Location: Rio Grande do Sul - South Brazil
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Free_Pistol/jacques b gros wrote:Could not find the FP bb in Yahoo.
Could you post the link?
Tks
Re: Modifying your Grips
Fred Mannis wrote:Here is an interesting article by Daryl Szarenski on modifying your pistol grips to fit your hand
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.comv1YLDTSKmBQ4WzIGgTWb2vygU97xozL8HoSr1rNoK8UwF4TcXPv63pMjq_61x5VJKUS_XEGZEpcP4PlSfuuVRrFgQITHT1yfYLlQ/USAMU%20Training%20Camp/Guide%20to%20Make%20Your%20Own%20Grip.PDF
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YJHUSMLKDf ... 20Grip.PDF
This I cut straight from the site.
Dang. I guess you have to be signed up afterall. Oh well.
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misterio2008
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:36 am
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gordonfriesen
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:31 pm
wrist and grip
Bill,
I found your grip post very helpful. I especially like the way you describe how addressing one problem causes others.
Natural point of aim begins at the shoulder. It is a question of balance and comfort and steadiness. I try to imaind that my body is a tree trunk, and the arm is a branch. The shoulder is not variable, it is just fixed by the way that the branch grows out of the tree. After that, I have the elbow fully locked, so the arm is just one solid straight stick of wood down to the wrist. Next, the position of the fingers must allow the trigger finger to work straight back. Last, you have the head position which dtermines the line of sight.
Now as your post reveals, if you set grip, NPA and head independently with your eyes shut, and then open them, you have little or no chance of seeing the sights aligned.
If you move your arm angle, you lose NPA. If you move your head too much you lose balance and have diffuculty with repeatability, as you so rightly remark. If you move the gun in the hand, with or without modifying the stock, you will eventually run into triggering problems, depending on how much correction you need.
So what is left?
The wrist.
In the end, the only way I have been able to reconcile head, arm and hand is through moving the wrist off the straight arm alignment. I am not talking about just capriciously waving the gun around at the wrist. I looked for a position that would work with the other elements and lock up tight. But what I found is that there really is no optimum wrist the way there is an optimum shoulder or an oprimum head. There are wrist angles which are not steady, but there are plenty which are. Compare to the elbow: when the elbow is straight, there is no more movement. The wrist has no such stopping point. In fact at the beginning when I read that the wrist should be locked, I immediately wondered, at what angle? Unfortuantely, at the time I didn't wonder about that long enough. I just found a center and stuck with it. And then I tried to align my sights by fiddling with the other elements. My new insight is that wrist should be the last element to fix, not the first.
As things are now, I have a good NPA, a good head, a decent trigger, and a locked wrist, but the angle iof the wrist is not centered.
What I have done is to prioritize the elements, and ask the most compromise from the most flexible and element, the wrist, which happens to be a universal joint capable of locking up in most positions.
What do you think of this approach?
My group and score have improved.
Best Regards,
Gordon
I found your grip post very helpful. I especially like the way you describe how addressing one problem causes others.
Natural point of aim begins at the shoulder. It is a question of balance and comfort and steadiness. I try to imaind that my body is a tree trunk, and the arm is a branch. The shoulder is not variable, it is just fixed by the way that the branch grows out of the tree. After that, I have the elbow fully locked, so the arm is just one solid straight stick of wood down to the wrist. Next, the position of the fingers must allow the trigger finger to work straight back. Last, you have the head position which dtermines the line of sight.
Now as your post reveals, if you set grip, NPA and head independently with your eyes shut, and then open them, you have little or no chance of seeing the sights aligned.
If you move your arm angle, you lose NPA. If you move your head too much you lose balance and have diffuculty with repeatability, as you so rightly remark. If you move the gun in the hand, with or without modifying the stock, you will eventually run into triggering problems, depending on how much correction you need.
So what is left?
The wrist.
In the end, the only way I have been able to reconcile head, arm and hand is through moving the wrist off the straight arm alignment. I am not talking about just capriciously waving the gun around at the wrist. I looked for a position that would work with the other elements and lock up tight. But what I found is that there really is no optimum wrist the way there is an optimum shoulder or an oprimum head. There are wrist angles which are not steady, but there are plenty which are. Compare to the elbow: when the elbow is straight, there is no more movement. The wrist has no such stopping point. In fact at the beginning when I read that the wrist should be locked, I immediately wondered, at what angle? Unfortuantely, at the time I didn't wonder about that long enough. I just found a center and stuck with it. And then I tried to align my sights by fiddling with the other elements. My new insight is that wrist should be the last element to fix, not the first.
As things are now, I have a good NPA, a good head, a decent trigger, and a locked wrist, but the angle iof the wrist is not centered.
What I have done is to prioritize the elements, and ask the most compromise from the most flexible and element, the wrist, which happens to be a universal joint capable of locking up in most positions.
What do you think of this approach?
My group and score have improved.
Best Regards,
Gordon
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2650 Plus
Grip
Gordon you may have the final answer. The best indication is the solid improvement in group and score. I would just sugest that the next time you become dissatisfied with the level of scores you might want to look at the wrist position again. Im not sugesting any change , just make sure it hasnt changed of its own accord. Only allow a change if you see a distinct need for such. A consistant wrist position will finally become stable and repeatible and is a most valuable tool for your bag of shooting techniques. And I am only repeating incidents from my own shooting experence, The properly stiffened wrist position actually took as much time as developing my trigger control. Good Shooting Bill Hoton
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Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:33 am
- Location: New Zealand
'Great!' I thought, 'I'll join the Yahoo group', so I went to the registration page and read the Terms of Service, like you do (you don't?). About 20% in, I thought 'No way!'
Pity.
Anyone know any other source of FP info / advice, which does not exist behind similar, unsatisfactory terms or conditions?
Pity.
Anyone know any other source of FP info / advice, which does not exist behind similar, unsatisfactory terms or conditions?
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Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:33 am
- Location: New Zealand
Ah! Just found the article (please tell us if it's not the one, Yahoo members).
www.sskpraha6.cz/navod.php and follow the menu.
www.sskpraha6.cz/navod.php and follow the menu.
Then try this: http://www.sskpraha6.cz/docs/vlastni_rukojet.pdf Here is this article by D S on modifying your pistol grips to fit your hand.buonvento wrote:Unfortunately I don't understand Czech....
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Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:33 am
- Location: New Zealand
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Gordon:
Insightful post. Piggybacking on what Bill said, the "Truth" of the matter is that grip is only one interconnected element of the shooting paltform.
[there have been a few related threads on this; some of them relatively recent]
Try this: take yiour normal stance, and then "close" yiour toes together. Do the eyes closed/natural point of aim test. What happened? You may say, "wow, my grip is no longer correct!" [by standing pigeon-toed, yoiu will naturally rotate your shoulder inward (CCW) and this will affect where you point].
So
Your toes are connected to your grip.
Foot position, leg lean, torso lean, shoulder roll, head position, grip, etc. are all part of the same "shooting platform" system. Yeah, I know, I have said this a thousand times. Here's the useful part.
"Natural Point of Aim" is, frankly, something of a "myth" but like all shooting folklore has at least some basis in reality. You will train yourself over time, as you make various decisions relating to your stance grip etc., to point "naturally" according to how you have configured your platform. The question is this: how do you know whether or not the "NPA" corner you have painted yourself into is a "good" configuration?
If you are a new shooter, you have a tremendous advantage over more experienced shooters because you have not yet established your NPA rut. if you already have a "burned in" NPA, you are at somewhat of a disadvantage but can still go back and "bettermize" your technique.
I think of it as first, determining your "neutral" point of aim and then making trade-offs among the various inter-related elements to build the platform.
1. Understand that foot position (angle to target and angle between feet), lean (lower and upper body), head/eye position, shoulder roll, wrist, and grip are the individual elements of technique that establish the platform.
2. Recognize that these elements are related to one another.
3. Recognize that while these elements affect each other in somewhat predictable ways, exactly how they interact with one another will depend on *your individual physiology* and will vary considerably from person to person. E.g., when *I* move my left foot back, my neutral point of aim *should* move up and to the left- but when I do this, I also tend to lean into the target more with my hips and therefore cancel out the "up" part of this effect but ot the "to the left" part of this effect. YOUR MILEAGE WILL VARY!
4. You need to experiment to the extremes of the envelope for all of these elements and take good notes! Find out what effect changes *you* make on each of thse elements has on *yoiur* neutral point of aim. For example, what happens when you roll your shoulder joint CCW? CW? When yoiu address the target with a "closed" stance? "Open" stance?
5. O.K., so if you still with me here, you should at least be asking "So I see my Neutral Point of Aim moving around . . . how do I know which is "Better?" Do I just assume that when "Neutral Point of Aim" aligns with the target I have found my sweet spot?"
NO!
The key is this- remember, your "natural" point of aim is malleable. you will train yourself to shoot a given NPA. When you are exploring around with your neutral point of aim, you are not necessarily looking for that combination of elements that puts you "automatically" on target with yoiur eyes closed!
Go back to the "fool around with the individual elements" step. O.K., so now you have taken notes and experimented with various grips, foot positions, head leans, etc. You understand how changes to each element effects the neutral point of aim. So what?
The best platform is that which, among all the tradeoffs between all the elements, results in a platform that is
1. STABLE
2. COMFORTABLE
3. REPEATABLE
I've posted on those three criteria before . . . and yes, there are tradeoffs among them (i.e. you might find the most stable combination but if it is uncomfortable and you can't get into it reliably, what's the use?)
Anyhow
Short answer to simple question: for some people, yes, the bones of the arm *will* bve aligned with the bones of the hand when they have the "best" grip FOR THEM but for the vast majority of folks . . . as your foot position rotates to face the target, you *will* have to turn the gun in yoiur hand for a "good" grip!!!!
Back under my rock now . . .
Insightful post. Piggybacking on what Bill said, the "Truth" of the matter is that grip is only one interconnected element of the shooting paltform.
[there have been a few related threads on this; some of them relatively recent]
Try this: take yiour normal stance, and then "close" yiour toes together. Do the eyes closed/natural point of aim test. What happened? You may say, "wow, my grip is no longer correct!" [by standing pigeon-toed, yoiu will naturally rotate your shoulder inward (CCW) and this will affect where you point].
So
Your toes are connected to your grip.
Foot position, leg lean, torso lean, shoulder roll, head position, grip, etc. are all part of the same "shooting platform" system. Yeah, I know, I have said this a thousand times. Here's the useful part.
"Natural Point of Aim" is, frankly, something of a "myth" but like all shooting folklore has at least some basis in reality. You will train yourself over time, as you make various decisions relating to your stance grip etc., to point "naturally" according to how you have configured your platform. The question is this: how do you know whether or not the "NPA" corner you have painted yourself into is a "good" configuration?
If you are a new shooter, you have a tremendous advantage over more experienced shooters because you have not yet established your NPA rut. if you already have a "burned in" NPA, you are at somewhat of a disadvantage but can still go back and "bettermize" your technique.
I think of it as first, determining your "neutral" point of aim and then making trade-offs among the various inter-related elements to build the platform.
1. Understand that foot position (angle to target and angle between feet), lean (lower and upper body), head/eye position, shoulder roll, wrist, and grip are the individual elements of technique that establish the platform.
2. Recognize that these elements are related to one another.
3. Recognize that while these elements affect each other in somewhat predictable ways, exactly how they interact with one another will depend on *your individual physiology* and will vary considerably from person to person. E.g., when *I* move my left foot back, my neutral point of aim *should* move up and to the left- but when I do this, I also tend to lean into the target more with my hips and therefore cancel out the "up" part of this effect but ot the "to the left" part of this effect. YOUR MILEAGE WILL VARY!
4. You need to experiment to the extremes of the envelope for all of these elements and take good notes! Find out what effect changes *you* make on each of thse elements has on *yoiur* neutral point of aim. For example, what happens when you roll your shoulder joint CCW? CW? When yoiu address the target with a "closed" stance? "Open" stance?
5. O.K., so if you still with me here, you should at least be asking "So I see my Neutral Point of Aim moving around . . . how do I know which is "Better?" Do I just assume that when "Neutral Point of Aim" aligns with the target I have found my sweet spot?"
NO!
The key is this- remember, your "natural" point of aim is malleable. you will train yourself to shoot a given NPA. When you are exploring around with your neutral point of aim, you are not necessarily looking for that combination of elements that puts you "automatically" on target with yoiur eyes closed!
Go back to the "fool around with the individual elements" step. O.K., so now you have taken notes and experimented with various grips, foot positions, head leans, etc. You understand how changes to each element effects the neutral point of aim. So what?
The best platform is that which, among all the tradeoffs between all the elements, results in a platform that is
1. STABLE
2. COMFORTABLE
3. REPEATABLE
I've posted on those three criteria before . . . and yes, there are tradeoffs among them (i.e. you might find the most stable combination but if it is uncomfortable and you can't get into it reliably, what's the use?)
Anyhow
Short answer to simple question: for some people, yes, the bones of the arm *will* bve aligned with the bones of the hand when they have the "best" grip FOR THEM but for the vast majority of folks . . . as your foot position rotates to face the target, you *will* have to turn the gun in yoiur hand for a "good" grip!!!!
Back under my rock now . . .
Well Steve, today I was dealing with a wandering NPA in Free and Air pistol.
I need to work this out before January for a sectional.
I started in Conventional and have a perpendicular stance to face of the target. Today I just couldn't get it together.
Shooting once week and no dry fire seems to be taking a toll.
I need to work this out before January for a sectional.
I started in Conventional and have a perpendicular stance to face of the target. Today I just couldn't get it together.
Shooting once week and no dry fire seems to be taking a toll.
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
2 observations
1. If you are snapping in daily, you will have a much greater chance of finding your "Natural" [sic] point of aim consistently. You are right to note that *not* dry firing daily makes for a wandering NPA . . .
2. If you did the "build my grip formt he toes up" exercise- and took notes- you would at least have a description/diagram of your "Natural" position that gives yoiu your "natural" point of aim. I hate to sound like a reformed rifle shooter but those log books are important.
The notes you made on your position are not a substitute for regular practice (or training for that matter) but it will prevent you from losing so much of your "epiphanies" and "discoveries" as you go.
Also, the "natural" stance you finally settle on resulted from work on your part and a lot of conditioning and experimentation; so you carefully write it down so you can easily get at least a rough approximation of it later. Problem is, your "sweet spot" will be different later- the notes will only give you an idea of roughly where to start again.
Your NPA platform that was great while you were training hard will probably be different from the NPA platform you need when you are not training hard.
Sometimes this sport can be somewhat demanding of our time and effort . . .
1. If you are snapping in daily, you will have a much greater chance of finding your "Natural" [sic] point of aim consistently. You are right to note that *not* dry firing daily makes for a wandering NPA . . .
2. If you did the "build my grip formt he toes up" exercise- and took notes- you would at least have a description/diagram of your "Natural" position that gives yoiu your "natural" point of aim. I hate to sound like a reformed rifle shooter but those log books are important.
The notes you made on your position are not a substitute for regular practice (or training for that matter) but it will prevent you from losing so much of your "epiphanies" and "discoveries" as you go.
Also, the "natural" stance you finally settle on resulted from work on your part and a lot of conditioning and experimentation; so you carefully write it down so you can easily get at least a rough approximation of it later. Problem is, your "sweet spot" will be different later- the notes will only give you an idea of roughly where to start again.
Your NPA platform that was great while you were training hard will probably be different from the NPA platform you need when you are not training hard.
Sometimes this sport can be somewhat demanding of our time and effort . . .
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2650 Plus
Taking your Grip
In addition to What Steve has posted. Let me make one ,more sugestion concerning NPA . Exactly as Steve has said, the NPA can wander quite a lot. This change seems to be related to other activities you have been involved in before attempting to shoot. The wrong muscles have been streached and others contracted. The fix is to gently streach the arm and shoulder in the opposite direction of the error you see when you are establishing you NPA. Do the streaching until your NPA returns to its normal position. I would never attempt to shoot until this correction has been completed sucessfully. All these interelated elements of building your shooting position should be uniform in spite of the fact that Mr. Ragnar payed very little attention to such mundane rote preparation. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Again echoing what Bill said- with a slight modification. "Consistency" in both your preparation (stretching etc.) and the individual technique elements (how you orient your feet etc) will help keep your NPA somewhat consistent.
But as we get tired during a match . . . or we train more/less leading up to the match . . . or if our relay is morning vs. afternoon . . . or if we ate a big meal recently . . . the "natural" PA *will* move.
That's why I tronlgy recommend going through the "neutral point of aim" exploration/experimentation I described earlier- once a year; during an "off" lull in competitions.
By "rebuilding" your platform (stance, lean, grip, head position, etc) on a regular basis you will learn how things are connected. You will learn how to adapt your "natural" point of aim based on what is going on for *you* at *this moment.*
I shot next to Ragnar (Free Pisol, USASNC) a few years back. IIRC he hammered out a 560 ish score . . . . and not a single element of his technique was the same shot to shot . . . [with a notable exception].
His grip, foot position, stance, lean, etc. etc. etc. was wildly different shot-shot.
But I "Gah-Rone-Tee" that every single time he dropped the hammer it was with perfectly aligned sights, sights that were moving UNDISTURBED by the action of releasing the shot!
(I never recieved any formal coaching from Ragnar. I have always wondered how he would be as a coach . . . )
But as we get tired during a match . . . or we train more/less leading up to the match . . . or if our relay is morning vs. afternoon . . . or if we ate a big meal recently . . . the "natural" PA *will* move.
That's why I tronlgy recommend going through the "neutral point of aim" exploration/experimentation I described earlier- once a year; during an "off" lull in competitions.
By "rebuilding" your platform (stance, lean, grip, head position, etc) on a regular basis you will learn how things are connected. You will learn how to adapt your "natural" point of aim based on what is going on for *you* at *this moment.*
I shot next to Ragnar (Free Pisol, USASNC) a few years back. IIRC he hammered out a 560 ish score . . . . and not a single element of his technique was the same shot to shot . . . [with a notable exception].
His grip, foot position, stance, lean, etc. etc. etc. was wildly different shot-shot.
But I "Gah-Rone-Tee" that every single time he dropped the hammer it was with perfectly aligned sights, sights that were moving UNDISTURBED by the action of releasing the shot!
(I never recieved any formal coaching from Ragnar. I have always wondered how he would be as a coach . . . )