Feinwekbau Model 2
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Feinwekbau Model 2
I have inherited what I believe is a Feinwekbau model 2 air pistol, SN 00422. The pistol has custom carved wood grips with tools and additional chamber and caps. The pistol belonged to my Father in law, John R. Kailer. He shot for the USAMU pistol team in the 70's and early 80's. I know he shot competition with it for many years and was a very accomplished shooter. I would like to find out more about this pistol. If anyone has any information about this type of air pistol please feel free to contact me via email. Thanks!
fwb
The FWB model 2 is a very nice pistol, that has the world record today.
The current world record in air pistol is 593, it has PYZHIANOV Sergei, born in russia, made this record in Oct 13 1989 in World Cup in Munich.
It's a collectors gun, try to keep that gun with you.
The FWB model2 was the first fwb pistol in use co2, before that gun, the FWB 65 were the best.
Nano
The current world record in air pistol is 593, it has PYZHIANOV Sergei, born in russia, made this record in Oct 13 1989 in World Cup in Munich.
It's a collectors gun, try to keep that gun with you.
The FWB model2 was the first fwb pistol in use co2, before that gun, the FWB 65 were the best.
Nano
Il add to this the only disadvantage i can see of this pistol is that it is heat sensative, apart from that is is just as good as shooting a new FWB. I have been shooting for about a year and i shoot with a model2. I have made some adjustments to the gun. I have a custom made grip, a custom made compensator, a custom trigger as i have long fingers and i have ground away a lot of the back of frame under the sight to allow my hand to be a lot closer to the barell line. After next weekend as i have a major como on, i will be doing some machine work that will reduce the locktime of the pistol. Il also add that my father first shot with a 65 and later with a model2 which he could shot high 570s low 580s
Hello Forum,
I have had this pistol (Mod 2 Kurtz or Short Barrel) since the early 80's...I replaced the seals and "O" rings a few months ago 25 years after I bought it new!
This gun is as good or better than my new FWB P44 ...It balances very nice, shoots like a dream and the accuracy is as it is in the best of the best in today's terms (Steyr LP10, FWB P44, etc.)
I am a Mechanical engineer who has done (hobby-side line) much testing in ballistics, optics, bullet proof glass, kevlar, carbon fiber etc. I am used to NOT BELIEVING anything I hear and I like to test everything for getting my own conclusions based on evidence; I am hired for doing so and I don't believe everything that I read on a magazine or a Blog.
Going back to the FWB Mod 2...I have never ever had a problem with temperature changes...The claim was that because the regulator was in the cylinder and not in the frame of the pistol, that the temperature affected the velocity thus the accuracy...This statement was big time HYPE and a pretty good marketing tool for pushing the new CO2 models...
Let me explain why I say this…
I put the Mod 2 in the freezer (in a plastic bag) for about 15-20 minutes and then chronographed the shots while the gun was attached to my Ransom machine and a target at exactly 10M...While shooting, I warmed the gun and cylinder with a hair dryer (in high heat) until the gun was pretty hot to the touch, and shot several groups...
NOT A THOUSAND OF AN INCH of variation in accuracy or point of impact, IDENTICAL perfect groups the size of the head of the pellet (I wish that I could shoot like my Ransom machine).
Then I finished the CO2 in the pistol cylinder for checking the velocity at the very end of the pressure range including velocities with the induced changes in temperature…This I did because there was the rumor that the pressure varied much the last few shots and that temperature changes aggravated the problem...
The maximum spread was about 7-8 fps and this happened all over the pressure range of the cylinder, so it has nothing to do with cylinder pressure. So if someone says that 8 fps it is enough for switching the point of impact at 10 Meters, then this person has never ever chronographed his “State of the art” gun or has never fired a competition pistol at this distance...
DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT YOU HEAR OR READ (Even from manufacturers)
My new P 44 has about the same spread (5-6 fps without changing the temperature as I did in the Mod 2) and so do my two FWB 700 rifles (I have 2 of these)...I will do the freezer hair dryer experiment with my P44 and rifles one day...
My advice?
Don’t worry about temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, etc. worry about yourself and your shooting and let the pistol do its job!
Bottom-line, the Mod 2 is as good as any top of the line pistol out there and if getting CO2 is not an issue for you, then stick to this pistol and keep it.
Let me mention one more experiment I did and that you are going to like…After I overhauled the gun and cylinders this summer, I filled the cylinders with AIR at 200 BAR and compensated/adjusted the velocity of the pistol to make it the same as the velocity when using CO2…While I did not get as many shots from the cylinder as I get with CO2, I got the very same accuracy...
So there you go!...You have a DUAL FUEL pistol!
Best regards,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
PS. I emailed you links for the manual, exploded view and replacement "O" rings and breech seal, if you did not get my mail, please let me know.
I have had this pistol (Mod 2 Kurtz or Short Barrel) since the early 80's...I replaced the seals and "O" rings a few months ago 25 years after I bought it new!
This gun is as good or better than my new FWB P44 ...It balances very nice, shoots like a dream and the accuracy is as it is in the best of the best in today's terms (Steyr LP10, FWB P44, etc.)
I am a Mechanical engineer who has done (hobby-side line) much testing in ballistics, optics, bullet proof glass, kevlar, carbon fiber etc. I am used to NOT BELIEVING anything I hear and I like to test everything for getting my own conclusions based on evidence; I am hired for doing so and I don't believe everything that I read on a magazine or a Blog.
Going back to the FWB Mod 2...I have never ever had a problem with temperature changes...The claim was that because the regulator was in the cylinder and not in the frame of the pistol, that the temperature affected the velocity thus the accuracy...This statement was big time HYPE and a pretty good marketing tool for pushing the new CO2 models...
Let me explain why I say this…
I put the Mod 2 in the freezer (in a plastic bag) for about 15-20 minutes and then chronographed the shots while the gun was attached to my Ransom machine and a target at exactly 10M...While shooting, I warmed the gun and cylinder with a hair dryer (in high heat) until the gun was pretty hot to the touch, and shot several groups...
NOT A THOUSAND OF AN INCH of variation in accuracy or point of impact, IDENTICAL perfect groups the size of the head of the pellet (I wish that I could shoot like my Ransom machine).
Then I finished the CO2 in the pistol cylinder for checking the velocity at the very end of the pressure range including velocities with the induced changes in temperature…This I did because there was the rumor that the pressure varied much the last few shots and that temperature changes aggravated the problem...
The maximum spread was about 7-8 fps and this happened all over the pressure range of the cylinder, so it has nothing to do with cylinder pressure. So if someone says that 8 fps it is enough for switching the point of impact at 10 Meters, then this person has never ever chronographed his “State of the art” gun or has never fired a competition pistol at this distance...
DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT YOU HEAR OR READ (Even from manufacturers)
My new P 44 has about the same spread (5-6 fps without changing the temperature as I did in the Mod 2) and so do my two FWB 700 rifles (I have 2 of these)...I will do the freezer hair dryer experiment with my P44 and rifles one day...
My advice?
Don’t worry about temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, etc. worry about yourself and your shooting and let the pistol do its job!
Bottom-line, the Mod 2 is as good as any top of the line pistol out there and if getting CO2 is not an issue for you, then stick to this pistol and keep it.
Let me mention one more experiment I did and that you are going to like…After I overhauled the gun and cylinders this summer, I filled the cylinders with AIR at 200 BAR and compensated/adjusted the velocity of the pistol to make it the same as the velocity when using CO2…While I did not get as many shots from the cylinder as I get with CO2, I got the very same accuracy...
So there you go!...You have a DUAL FUEL pistol!
Best regards,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
PS. I emailed you links for the manual, exploded view and replacement "O" rings and breech seal, if you did not get my mail, please let me know.
I would have to strongly disagree with this. When you did these tests did you weight the cylindar before to make sure it was completely full before you did it. if it was not full it would not occur. I have experienced this with a pressure build up in the state championships resulting in the pistol going out probable 3 to 400 feet per second slower. thus i shot a 5. my father who shot with this pistol for many years had this problem on maybe hundreds of occasions. When shooting the national championships in Darwin when it was around 45 degrees he had to keep a face washer soaked in ice and put it over the cylindar between every shot. If you fill it to 323 grams gross weight when it is cold it will shoot fine. on a 40 degree+ day it will not even fire once. you have to bleed it down to around 315 before it will fireazuaro wrote:Hello Forum,
I have had this pistol (Mod 2 Kurtz or Short Barrel) since the early 80's...I replaced the seals and "O" rings a few months ago 25 years after I bought it new!
This gun is as good or better than my new FWB P44 ...It balances very nice, shoots like a dream and the accuracy is as it is in the best of the best in today's terms (Steyr LP10, FWB P44, etc.)
I am a Mechanical engineer who has done (hobby-side line) much testing in ballistics, optics, bullet proof glass, kevlar, carbon fiber etc. I am used to NOT BELIEVING anything I hear and I like to test everything for getting my own conclusions based on evidence; I am hired for doing so and I don't believe everything that I read on a magazine or a Blog.
Going back to the FWB Mod 2...I have never ever had a problem with temperature changes...The claim was that because the regulator was in the cylinder and not in the frame of the pistol, that the temperature affected the velocity thus the accuracy...This statement was big time HYPE and a pretty good marketing tool for pushing the new CO2 models...
Let me explain why I say this…
I put the Mod 2 in the freezer (in a plastic bag) for about 15-20 minutes and then chronographed the shots while the gun was attached to my Ransom machine and a target at exactly 10M...While shooting, I warmed the gun and cylinder with a hair dryer (in high heat) until the gun was pretty hot to the touch, and shot several groups...
NOT A THOUSAND OF AN INCH of variation in accuracy or point of impact, IDENTICAL perfect groups the size of the head of the pellet (I wish that I could shoot like my Ransom machine).
Then I finished the CO2 in the pistol cylinder for checking the velocity at the very end of the pressure range including velocities with the induced changes in temperature…This I did because there was the rumor that the pressure varied much the last few shots and that temperature changes aggravated the problem...
The maximum spread was about 7-8 fps and this happened all over the pressure range of the cylinder, so it has nothing to do with cylinder pressure. So if someone says that 8 fps it is enough for switching the point of impact at 10 Meters, then this person has never ever chronographed his “State of the art” gun or has never fired a competition pistol at this distance...
DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT YOU HEAR OR READ (Even from manufacturers)
My new P 44 has about the same spread (5-6 fps without changing the temperature as I did in the Mod 2) and so do my two FWB 700 rifles (I have 2 of these)...I will do the freezer hair dryer experiment with my P44 and rifles one day...
My advice?
Don’t worry about temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, etc. worry about yourself and your shooting and let the pistol do its job!
Bottom-line, the Mod 2 is as good as any top of the line pistol out there and if getting CO2 is not an issue for you, then stick to this pistol and keep it.
Let me mention one more experiment I did and that you are going to like…After I overhauled the gun and cylinders this summer, I filled the cylinders with AIR at 200 BAR and compensated/adjusted the velocity of the pistol to make it the same as the velocity when using CO2…While I did not get as many shots from the cylinder as I get with CO2, I got the very same accuracy...
So there you go!...You have a DUAL FUEL pistol!
Best regards,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
PS. I emailed you links for the manual, exploded view and replacement "O" rings and breech seal, if you did not get my mail, please let me know.
You put 200 bar in a CO2 cylinder???????azuaro wrote:Let me mention one more experiment I did and that you are going to like…After I overhauled the gun and cylinders this summer, I filled the cylinders with AIR at 200 BAR and compensated/adjusted the velocity of the pistol to make it the same as the velocity when using CO2…While I did not get as many shots from the cylinder as I get with CO2, I got the very same accuracy...
Spencer
Answer:Spencer wrote:You put 200 bar in a CO2 cylinder???????azuaro wrote:Let me mention one more experiment I did and that you are going to like…After I overhauled the gun and cylinders this summer, I filled the cylinders with AIR at 200 BAR and compensated/adjusted the velocity of the pistol to make it the same as the velocity when using CO2…While I did not get as many shots from the cylinder as I get with CO2, I got the very same accuracy...
Spencer
!!!!azuaro wrote:DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT YOU HEAR OR READ
The operating pressure (= the pressure inside the pistol) of CO2 and PCP pistol is very much the same.
For CO2, the pressure is regulated by the physical law of the pressure at which the CO2 switch from liquid to gaz state: as long as there is some liquid CO2 remaining in the cylinder, the pressure remains constant (at least for a given temparature, the pressure at which CO2 switch to gaz vary with the temperature).
For PCP there is a regulator (like in a scuba dive tank) ensuring a constant pressure in the pistol for a diminishing pressure in the cylinder (at least as long as the pressure in the cylinder is a little higher than the operating pressure of the pistol).
Its the fact that the operating pressure is the same that makes it easy for Steyr to have the same pistol in CO2 version or PCP version: the only difference between the two is the regulator added to the PCP and placed between the cylinder and the pistol.
For CO2, the pressure is regulated by the physical law of the pressure at which the CO2 switch from liquid to gaz state: as long as there is some liquid CO2 remaining in the cylinder, the pressure remains constant (at least for a given temparature, the pressure at which CO2 switch to gaz vary with the temperature).
For PCP there is a regulator (like in a scuba dive tank) ensuring a constant pressure in the pistol for a diminishing pressure in the cylinder (at least as long as the pressure in the cylinder is a little higher than the operating pressure of the pistol).
Its the fact that the operating pressure is the same that makes it easy for Steyr to have the same pistol in CO2 version or PCP version: the only difference between the two is the regulator added to the PCP and placed between the cylinder and the pistol.
Hello Members,
Absolutely, this is how CO2 and Air mechanisms operate...
The Mod 2 has the pressure regulator in the CO2 cylinders and later CO2 models have them in the frame (pistol itself). The reason was to have one regulator (in the pistol) for as many CO2 cylinders used vs. one regulator per cylinder.
CO2 and Air operate with a common denominator called PRESSURE, whether liquid CO2 transformed into gas or plain compressed air...Presure is Pressure and the only difference is how you control this variable for consistency.
The person who questioned about loading a CO2 cylinder with 200 BAR pressure of air has obviously never seen a FWB CO2 cylinder. All FWB CO2 cylinders are stamped 250 BAR Max Pressure and FWB never put a 60 PSI max pressure relief valve/seal of any kind in any CO2 gun…Actually, FWB CO2 guns WILL NOT shoot at 60 PSI !!
Note: Some Daisy BB guns in fact shoot at around 50 - 60 PSI (Red Ryder and Mod 105)
While the Mod 2 was not designed for air, it is a fact that you can load the cylinder with air and shoot. I don't recommend this as a general practice because of the lesser amount of shots that you get and because the mechanism is not fine tuned for shooting air.
Instead of getting around 120 shots with CO2 (Kurtz CO2 cylinders) you would get about half of that with air; I was testing velocity-accuracy and did not count them, CO2 cylinders are smaller than air cylinders for obvious reasons...
Note: You will need to chronograph your velocities with CO2 and compensate them (make them equal) when shooting with air by adjusting the velocity screw on the back of the grip frame.
If anyone wants to try this experiment, all that you need is to add an “O” ring as a seal inside the threads of your FWB air adaptor. I used a Hill pump with a FWB adaptor that I use for filling my FWB air guns. The threads are the same but the CO2 cylinder needs this extra seal, if you don’t add the “O” ring the air will leak at about 40 – 50 PSI...
Don’t be afraid of pressures, because as I mentioned before, CO2 cylinders are designed for 250 BAR Max while most of the Air Cylinders are designed for 200 BAR.
Note: For those who are skeptical or who don’t believe that this experiment is possible, FWB actually sells or sold a few years ago a "CO2 to Air" conversion for some of its CO2 pistol models.
Best Regards,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
Absolutely, this is how CO2 and Air mechanisms operate...
The Mod 2 has the pressure regulator in the CO2 cylinders and later CO2 models have them in the frame (pistol itself). The reason was to have one regulator (in the pistol) for as many CO2 cylinders used vs. one regulator per cylinder.
CO2 and Air operate with a common denominator called PRESSURE, whether liquid CO2 transformed into gas or plain compressed air...Presure is Pressure and the only difference is how you control this variable for consistency.
The person who questioned about loading a CO2 cylinder with 200 BAR pressure of air has obviously never seen a FWB CO2 cylinder. All FWB CO2 cylinders are stamped 250 BAR Max Pressure and FWB never put a 60 PSI max pressure relief valve/seal of any kind in any CO2 gun…Actually, FWB CO2 guns WILL NOT shoot at 60 PSI !!
Note: Some Daisy BB guns in fact shoot at around 50 - 60 PSI (Red Ryder and Mod 105)
While the Mod 2 was not designed for air, it is a fact that you can load the cylinder with air and shoot. I don't recommend this as a general practice because of the lesser amount of shots that you get and because the mechanism is not fine tuned for shooting air.
Instead of getting around 120 shots with CO2 (Kurtz CO2 cylinders) you would get about half of that with air; I was testing velocity-accuracy and did not count them, CO2 cylinders are smaller than air cylinders for obvious reasons...
Note: You will need to chronograph your velocities with CO2 and compensate them (make them equal) when shooting with air by adjusting the velocity screw on the back of the grip frame.
If anyone wants to try this experiment, all that you need is to add an “O” ring as a seal inside the threads of your FWB air adaptor. I used a Hill pump with a FWB adaptor that I use for filling my FWB air guns. The threads are the same but the CO2 cylinder needs this extra seal, if you don’t add the “O” ring the air will leak at about 40 – 50 PSI...
Don’t be afraid of pressures, because as I mentioned before, CO2 cylinders are designed for 250 BAR Max while most of the Air Cylinders are designed for 200 BAR.
Note: For those who are skeptical or who don’t believe that this experiment is possible, FWB actually sells or sold a few years ago a "CO2 to Air" conversion for some of its CO2 pistol models.
Best Regards,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
Actually, I think the conversion kit was made by Morini - I put one on my FWB 100 many years ago, but it was sold for the C20 / C25 etc, and there was another one for the Walther pistols - got me about 180m/sec from the 100 :-) There is a pretty large piece of equipment between the tank and the "old" system, which I'd guess is the reduction valve - so I'd not care to put 200bar of pressurized air if the "experts" find it necessary to mount all that stuff between the air and the old system...
Dear Muffo,
I freeze the CO2 cylinders before filling them, and of course, I then use the bleeding adaptor for getting the exact TARA + CO2 charge using an OHAUS very accurate scale.
The cylinders need to somewhat be "normalized" after being filled, otherwise the frozen valves in the cylinder will be VERY ERRATIC in dispensing CO2...As a rule of thumb, just wait until the cylinder is dry (no condensation) or when it is not cold to the touch.
If you notoriously overfill the CO2 cylinder, the pistol will not fire because the striking spring (used for controlling the velocity of the pistol) will not be strong enough to actuate the valve in the cylinder. Please don't confuse this situation with a frozen cylinder valve that can occur even when the cylinder is half full.
If the overfill is not much, you can increase the striking force of the spring via the adjustment screw in the back of the pistol frame (you will increase the velocity) and then your gun will fire.
Note: This adjustment is for explaining the overpressure remedy for making the pistol to fire and is not what should be done.
One thing that I will recommend you is to overhaul your CO2 cylinders...When doing so clean the inside of the cylinder very thoroughly and lightly LUBRICATE the valve components and orifice making sure that there is no rust (Use a non-petroleum based light grease).
The experiment (temperature) was more complicated that what I wrote in this Forum, I did it for Air Gunner Magazine back in 1984-85 while I was in London.
The issue behind this article was to give an assessment over the HYPE that CO2 guns were "Very Erratic" given the change in CO2 pressures derived from changes in the temperature.
The end result is that if you are on target during your sight in shots before the competition, you will be on target during the tournament. Changes in temperature that occur at any place on this earth during a 2-3 hour time frame WILL BE NEGLIGIBLE AT 10 M.
In the experiment I mentioned, we did find significant variations at longer distances (out of the range of a 10 meter gun) but again, it was proved that at 10 M the changes of pressure in a given day would not be a good missing excuse for anyone… The RANSOM machine did the flawlessly shooting and I was just the engineer behind the testing…
There are more important variables to consider when shooting at 10 M than these minute variations (at 10 M) caused by temperature, barometric pressure, humidity, etc. Changes in light, position of the sun if shooting outside are probably the most important non human variables to consider.
Best regards,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
I freeze the CO2 cylinders before filling them, and of course, I then use the bleeding adaptor for getting the exact TARA + CO2 charge using an OHAUS very accurate scale.
The cylinders need to somewhat be "normalized" after being filled, otherwise the frozen valves in the cylinder will be VERY ERRATIC in dispensing CO2...As a rule of thumb, just wait until the cylinder is dry (no condensation) or when it is not cold to the touch.
If you notoriously overfill the CO2 cylinder, the pistol will not fire because the striking spring (used for controlling the velocity of the pistol) will not be strong enough to actuate the valve in the cylinder. Please don't confuse this situation with a frozen cylinder valve that can occur even when the cylinder is half full.
If the overfill is not much, you can increase the striking force of the spring via the adjustment screw in the back of the pistol frame (you will increase the velocity) and then your gun will fire.
Note: This adjustment is for explaining the overpressure remedy for making the pistol to fire and is not what should be done.
One thing that I will recommend you is to overhaul your CO2 cylinders...When doing so clean the inside of the cylinder very thoroughly and lightly LUBRICATE the valve components and orifice making sure that there is no rust (Use a non-petroleum based light grease).
The experiment (temperature) was more complicated that what I wrote in this Forum, I did it for Air Gunner Magazine back in 1984-85 while I was in London.
The issue behind this article was to give an assessment over the HYPE that CO2 guns were "Very Erratic" given the change in CO2 pressures derived from changes in the temperature.
The end result is that if you are on target during your sight in shots before the competition, you will be on target during the tournament. Changes in temperature that occur at any place on this earth during a 2-3 hour time frame WILL BE NEGLIGIBLE AT 10 M.
In the experiment I mentioned, we did find significant variations at longer distances (out of the range of a 10 meter gun) but again, it was proved that at 10 M the changes of pressure in a given day would not be a good missing excuse for anyone… The RANSOM machine did the flawlessly shooting and I was just the engineer behind the testing…
There are more important variables to consider when shooting at 10 M than these minute variations (at 10 M) caused by temperature, barometric pressure, humidity, etc. Changes in light, position of the sun if shooting outside are probably the most important non human variables to consider.
Best regards,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
As written, CO2 pistol do not have a regulator.
The regulation of the pressure is done by the physical law that a liquid switch to gaz at a constant pressure => the pressure remains constant as long as there is some liquid CO2 in the cylinder. This pressure changes when temperature changes but, indeed, it cannot change enough during a match to modify the point of impact. But the difference of temperature between let say summer and winter can be big enough to require to readjust the sight.
When the cylinder is overfilled, there is no space anymore for gaz CO2 and the liquid will be able to reach the valve of the cylinder. This could easily happen with horizontal cylinders => it is the reason why vertical "bottle" type of cylinders used on for instance the FWB C25 (and some Walther, do not remember the model type, Walther made so many air pistol models...) were invented.
The conversion kit for FWB pistols was indeed made by Morini and contains the regulator needed to deliver a constant pressure with air that remains as a gaz in the cylinder with its pressure dropping slowily shot after shot. This regulator is placed between the cylinder and the pistol.
The kit also contains two air cylinders:
and is pretty expensive (around 450Euros).
Steyr has a similar kit for the CO2 LP1, LP5 and LP10C (as far as I know, the LP50 never exist in CO2), it also come between the cylinder and the pistol frame (its the piece on which it was written "steyr Air" on the LP1, LP5 and old LP10, the Steyr regulator is pretty small). The Steyr conversion kit also contains new cylinders.
200bar air cylinders are tested at 300bar for safety reasons: suppose the cylinder is filled at 200bar at low temperature and later put in a hot place, in a car parked in the sun for instance, then the pressure in the cylinder will raise well above 200bar.
The regulation of the pressure is done by the physical law that a liquid switch to gaz at a constant pressure => the pressure remains constant as long as there is some liquid CO2 in the cylinder. This pressure changes when temperature changes but, indeed, it cannot change enough during a match to modify the point of impact. But the difference of temperature between let say summer and winter can be big enough to require to readjust the sight.
When the cylinder is overfilled, there is no space anymore for gaz CO2 and the liquid will be able to reach the valve of the cylinder. This could easily happen with horizontal cylinders => it is the reason why vertical "bottle" type of cylinders used on for instance the FWB C25 (and some Walther, do not remember the model type, Walther made so many air pistol models...) were invented.
The conversion kit for FWB pistols was indeed made by Morini and contains the regulator needed to deliver a constant pressure with air that remains as a gaz in the cylinder with its pressure dropping slowily shot after shot. This regulator is placed between the cylinder and the pistol.
The kit also contains two air cylinders:
and is pretty expensive (around 450Euros).
Steyr has a similar kit for the CO2 LP1, LP5 and LP10C (as far as I know, the LP50 never exist in CO2), it also come between the cylinder and the pistol frame (its the piece on which it was written "steyr Air" on the LP1, LP5 and old LP10, the Steyr regulator is pretty small). The Steyr conversion kit also contains new cylinders.
200bar air cylinders are tested at 300bar for safety reasons: suppose the cylinder is filled at 200bar at low temperature and later put in a hot place, in a car parked in the sun for instance, then the pressure in the cylinder will raise well above 200bar.
-
Fred
Jipe is quite correct: CO2 guns do not need regulators, and the problems with the first generation CO2 FWB pistol had nothing to do with the placement of a regulator, since there was none.
Don Nygord described the problems at least 15 years ago, and, as a premier shooter, gunsmith and QC expert, he knew what he was talking about. By having the metering valve (not regulator) in the cylinder, the FWB was subject to 2 problems which were more or less solved in the later generation CO2 guns.
First, the accessibility of the metering valve to liquid CO2 meant that the cylinder could "lock up" in either extreme ambient cold or heat. This was basically a function problem, and not an accuracy problem.
Second, because the valve springs were never identical between different cylinders, the pressure at which they opened to permit gas flow would vary from cylinder to cylinder. Most of the time the differences were negligible, but for example I briefly owned a FWB 2 whose cylinders varied in flow so much there was a 100+fps difference in velocity. This could be an accuracy issue if you needed to change cylinders during a match.
Later generation CO2 guns use a "staging chamber" system that moves the metering valve out of the cylinder and into the gun, and has a small chamber inside the gun where a charge of CO2 gas (no liquid) is available for the next shot. This system avoids most of the first generation problems, and is very reliable.
While the FWB 2 is fine gun and will serve well in most circumstances, the later CO2 guns have a fundamentally better design.
HTH,
FredB
Don Nygord described the problems at least 15 years ago, and, as a premier shooter, gunsmith and QC expert, he knew what he was talking about. By having the metering valve (not regulator) in the cylinder, the FWB was subject to 2 problems which were more or less solved in the later generation CO2 guns.
First, the accessibility of the metering valve to liquid CO2 meant that the cylinder could "lock up" in either extreme ambient cold or heat. This was basically a function problem, and not an accuracy problem.
Second, because the valve springs were never identical between different cylinders, the pressure at which they opened to permit gas flow would vary from cylinder to cylinder. Most of the time the differences were negligible, but for example I briefly owned a FWB 2 whose cylinders varied in flow so much there was a 100+fps difference in velocity. This could be an accuracy issue if you needed to change cylinders during a match.
Later generation CO2 guns use a "staging chamber" system that moves the metering valve out of the cylinder and into the gun, and has a small chamber inside the gun where a charge of CO2 gas (no liquid) is available for the next shot. This system avoids most of the first generation problems, and is very reliable.
While the FWB 2 is fine gun and will serve well in most circumstances, the later CO2 guns have a fundamentally better design.
HTH,
FredB
having re-read my earlier post, it definitely refers to 60BAR, not to 60psi.
60BAR is approximately the CO2 vapour pressure at 40C.
cannot readily get my hands on a F2 at the moment, but the cylinders for my venerable FEG CO2 are clearly marked 100bar maximum. The sealing ring between the cylinder sections will blow out if the pressure gets too high (from personal experience - as in the car in summer) and I am told that this is a design feature.
Spencer
60BAR is approximately the CO2 vapour pressure at 40C.
cannot readily get my hands on a F2 at the moment, but the cylinders for my venerable FEG CO2 are clearly marked 100bar maximum. The sealing ring between the cylinder sections will blow out if the pressure gets too high (from personal experience - as in the car in summer) and I am told that this is a design feature.
Spencer
Hello again,
Jipe and Fred…We are in the same frequency, very good replies...Thanks!
I looked for the conversion’s picture and could not find it...Thanks again for posting it as it will help other members who may have not seen it.
Absolutely...The switch from horizontal cylinders to vertical ones was done because of what you mention: “To reduce the possibility of overflowing the gas chamber with liquid CO2”.
The models that used the vertical cylinder were very ugly and I personally found them uncomfortable to shoot (My personal taste as I do not want to offend anyone)...
Very true is the fact that most of the "wild shots" in the Mod 2 were generated by the liquid CO2 overflowing the gas chamber and freezing the valve and not allowing the expansion of the liquid into gas for attaining the necessary pressure.
It is important to mention that the problem was generated NOT by the varying pressure of the gas caused by differences in ambient temperature as it has been claimed over the years.
If the pin or tip of valve (where the hammer strikes the cylinder for releasing gas) is too tight, it tends to freeze very easily when the cylinder is full, this creates the fliers that most users are concerned about and that are "wrongly" attributed to variation in temperature-pressure of CO2...This is a A MECHANICAL PROBLEM of tolerances and liquid overflow causing a very significant drop in velocity...
The CO2 guns do not have a "Regulator" per se as we know it in air PCP guns, scuba tanks, etc., these air regulators use two stages/chambers and a spring. Inside the cylinders of the Mod 2 there is a chamber in front of the liquid CO2 that is designed for providing a measured volume of gas given a constant pressure and there is a release valve. If this chamber floods with liquid CO2, then the valve will pass gas combined with liquid (not expanded) generating the problems that have been mentioned above and before in this thread...
How you name a chamber with a pre-determined volume is a matter of semantics and anyone can call it anyway they want, but you all will agree that for the simple fact that the chamber is measuring the CO2, this is some kind of a "regulator"…
Breathable air also varies its pressure with temperature and no matter how good and accurate the air pressure regulator is, there will be minimal variations; this will worsen if you consider that the regulator has a spring that is also affected by temperature and wear…For reducing this temperature/pressure variable in any system, we would then need to shoot with an inert gas such as Nitrogen...It has been done but not commercialized because it is not necessary.
The FWB Mod 2 cylinders do not have a spring, there is a valve with "O" rings and a seal, the pressure of the gas pushes the valve outwards for a tight seal and it is the spring force in the hammer striking the tip/pin of the valve the one that generates the necessary force for opening the valve by pushing it backwards into the cylinder.
I have 4 cylinders for my Mod 2 and they all shoot identical velocities but I must admit that I did a little machining to alleviate potential known problems...Replacing the "O" rings, cleaning the cylinder on the inside, appropiately lubricating the valve and making sure that the tip of the valve moves freely inside the hole does the trick.
Best Regards for all members and a happy Thanksgiving day!
Best Regards,
Jipe and Fred…We are in the same frequency, very good replies...Thanks!
I looked for the conversion’s picture and could not find it...Thanks again for posting it as it will help other members who may have not seen it.
Absolutely...The switch from horizontal cylinders to vertical ones was done because of what you mention: “To reduce the possibility of overflowing the gas chamber with liquid CO2”.
The models that used the vertical cylinder were very ugly and I personally found them uncomfortable to shoot (My personal taste as I do not want to offend anyone)...
Very true is the fact that most of the "wild shots" in the Mod 2 were generated by the liquid CO2 overflowing the gas chamber and freezing the valve and not allowing the expansion of the liquid into gas for attaining the necessary pressure.
It is important to mention that the problem was generated NOT by the varying pressure of the gas caused by differences in ambient temperature as it has been claimed over the years.
If the pin or tip of valve (where the hammer strikes the cylinder for releasing gas) is too tight, it tends to freeze very easily when the cylinder is full, this creates the fliers that most users are concerned about and that are "wrongly" attributed to variation in temperature-pressure of CO2...This is a A MECHANICAL PROBLEM of tolerances and liquid overflow causing a very significant drop in velocity...
The CO2 guns do not have a "Regulator" per se as we know it in air PCP guns, scuba tanks, etc., these air regulators use two stages/chambers and a spring. Inside the cylinders of the Mod 2 there is a chamber in front of the liquid CO2 that is designed for providing a measured volume of gas given a constant pressure and there is a release valve. If this chamber floods with liquid CO2, then the valve will pass gas combined with liquid (not expanded) generating the problems that have been mentioned above and before in this thread...
How you name a chamber with a pre-determined volume is a matter of semantics and anyone can call it anyway they want, but you all will agree that for the simple fact that the chamber is measuring the CO2, this is some kind of a "regulator"…
Breathable air also varies its pressure with temperature and no matter how good and accurate the air pressure regulator is, there will be minimal variations; this will worsen if you consider that the regulator has a spring that is also affected by temperature and wear…For reducing this temperature/pressure variable in any system, we would then need to shoot with an inert gas such as Nitrogen...It has been done but not commercialized because it is not necessary.
The FWB Mod 2 cylinders do not have a spring, there is a valve with "O" rings and a seal, the pressure of the gas pushes the valve outwards for a tight seal and it is the spring force in the hammer striking the tip/pin of the valve the one that generates the necessary force for opening the valve by pushing it backwards into the cylinder.
I have 4 cylinders for my Mod 2 and they all shoot identical velocities but I must admit that I did a little machining to alleviate potential known problems...Replacing the "O" rings, cleaning the cylinder on the inside, appropiately lubricating the valve and making sure that the tip of the valve moves freely inside the hole does the trick.
Best Regards for all members and a happy Thanksgiving day!
Best Regards,
there you are. you have explained what i was trying to say. I gues i didnt really explain it in the best terms its not actually caused by a large increase of pressure people just call it a pressure build up it is the liquid co2 freezing the valve. The point at which this happens changes with different temperatures. in winter here it is fine to just freeze the cylindar then fill it. on a hot day in summer you have to have a bit less in it to start with or the valve will freeze. I dont see this as a problem as if you weigh the cylindar there is no problem. this is the reason that i said it is the only disadvantage because with say a p44 you dont have to weight it, just read the guage
Hi Muffo,
Very unfortunately this particular kit was only offered for the models that followed the Mod 2 ...
In my opinion they were asking a lot of money for it (about $500.00 US or more)... If you added this to the money that you would get for selling your CO2 pistol plus very little cash would get you a brand new FWB air pistol.
I understood your problem ever since you posted it because I fixed my cylinders for the very same reason, I wish that we were able to speak instead of writing (in the Forum). Most of the misunderstandings are lack of communication and semantics...
I may call "Regulator" a device that measures or regulates the supply of the CO2 gas and some other people will call it "Metering Device" because it supplies a measured volume of Gas...We are talking about the same thing but the semantics make it difficult to communicate. One engineer from Feinwerkbau that I met in London referred to the air regulator as the Air Pressure & Valve Control...I knew what he was talking about so there was never a problem in the communication...
I live in Montana very close to Glacier Park and believe me, we do get pretty cold weather, so I do know your situation very well...
My humble advice will be that the next time that you rebuild your pistol and cylinders, do what I did when I refurbished mine and posted in this thread. You will be amazed of the dirt and rust that some of these cylinders have inside and in the Mod 2 the correct functioning of the cylinders and valve are vital…
If you really want to get serious about refurbishing these cylinders, HARD CHROME the inside of the cylinder, valve and thread section and then install the “O” rings, seals, lubricate and assemble…Your cylinders will work as a hot knife cutting butter.
The kit for doing your pistol and cylinders costs only $30.00 !! …Please go to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Feinwerkbau-Beeman- ... .m20.l1116
Off the record... I have a P44 and a 56 for rapid fire shooting (very fun) and I still keep my first pistol, a FWB 65 (I don't shoot this gun) ... But to be honest, I shoot better and get better scores with my Mod 2 all day long...I may sell or trade the P44 or the 56 but the Mod 2 will stay with me forever.
Have a nice Thanksgiving day,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
Very unfortunately this particular kit was only offered for the models that followed the Mod 2 ...
In my opinion they were asking a lot of money for it (about $500.00 US or more)... If you added this to the money that you would get for selling your CO2 pistol plus very little cash would get you a brand new FWB air pistol.
I understood your problem ever since you posted it because I fixed my cylinders for the very same reason, I wish that we were able to speak instead of writing (in the Forum). Most of the misunderstandings are lack of communication and semantics...
I may call "Regulator" a device that measures or regulates the supply of the CO2 gas and some other people will call it "Metering Device" because it supplies a measured volume of Gas...We are talking about the same thing but the semantics make it difficult to communicate. One engineer from Feinwerkbau that I met in London referred to the air regulator as the Air Pressure & Valve Control...I knew what he was talking about so there was never a problem in the communication...
I live in Montana very close to Glacier Park and believe me, we do get pretty cold weather, so I do know your situation very well...
My humble advice will be that the next time that you rebuild your pistol and cylinders, do what I did when I refurbished mine and posted in this thread. You will be amazed of the dirt and rust that some of these cylinders have inside and in the Mod 2 the correct functioning of the cylinders and valve are vital…
If you really want to get serious about refurbishing these cylinders, HARD CHROME the inside of the cylinder, valve and thread section and then install the “O” rings, seals, lubricate and assemble…Your cylinders will work as a hot knife cutting butter.
The kit for doing your pistol and cylinders costs only $30.00 !! …Please go to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Feinwerkbau-Beeman- ... .m20.l1116
Off the record... I have a P44 and a 56 for rapid fire shooting (very fun) and I still keep my first pistol, a FWB 65 (I don't shoot this gun) ... But to be honest, I shoot better and get better scores with my Mod 2 all day long...I may sell or trade the P44 or the 56 but the Mod 2 will stay with me forever.
Have a nice Thanksgiving day,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT