Choosing a Pistol

[ausdiver99]

David, plinkers are just that, why saddle yourself with one when you have such high aims?

What match are you considering? Modern Rapid Fire requires a .22 pistol with minimal recoil & excellent recoil recovery - hence the development of special RF models of existing standard pistols such as the Morini CM22RF and MG2RF

The reality is you can expect to pay $1500+ for anything half decent such as a Morini, late model Pardini or an AW 93 and then it will not be a RF optimised model.

If you want to stay aroud $1000 or less then perhaps the best of the older ones to consider are, in no particular order, Hammerli 208, Unique DES 69 and Walther GSP. These were all top guns in their day. Best try a few of these out at your club with the match/s you intend to shoot. Be aware that recoil recovery, compared to the more modern pistols is not good, so if RF is your chosen match then make sure you run through a few 4 second series. A good example of any of them will be better than any of the so-called plinkers IMHO.

There will no doubt be many other comments about alternatives to these such as:

* Benelli MP90S - my wife has one and likes it, hard to get good trigger;
* FAS 602 - relatively cheap but known to be variable in quality and fussy with ammunition, original (French) Domino better (I still have the .22 short 601 and loved shooting it until 2005 when the rules changed)


If you are also interested in CF then perhaps a Walther GSP or Hammerli 280 combination .22/.32 is worth a look? They are not common now but there were plenty Hammerli 280's being used at the 2006 Commonwealth Games in Melbourne. Pakistan's Ali Ishrad along with at least 2 others in the Pakistani team used 280s and there were other competitors using them too. Ali finished with Silver in Standard Pistol with a 568 after a shoot-off with Gold medalist Mick Gault and 6th in Centre Fire with a 571 (gold, silver and bronze all shot 578 in a three way shoot-off). The old 280s can still do the job it seems.

Regards & Good luck!

[tenex]

Hi David,
I might be a little biased (growing up in Connecticut, the home of the original High Standards) but if you get a decent used HS and a proper orthopedic grip, what's stopping you from shooting master class scores?

Granted, if you want the kind of balance you get from a Pardini or a Walther you're a bit out of luck, but what's the real difference between a HS Citation and a Hammerli 208? They're really not all that different (not that I don't want a 208, I can't afford one either!).

If you can make the gun fit it will probably do a good job for you.

Good luck,
Steve.

[higginsdj]

My interests lie primarily with AP but any of the .22 discipline, as a secondary, including free pistol hold my interest. I don't think CF will hold great interest for me except perhaps Service - but thats at leat 18 months down the track.

At present I am getting good groups (good as in a solid 8 or better in precision though todays efforts were more the size of 9 or better) with a Hammerlie 208 but I do like the grip 'rake' and 2 step trigger of the 280 which has produced similar groups.

I'd be hoping for something in the $1000-$1500 bracket. Second hand 208's seem to be around the $800 mark and I have seen a couple of 280's around the $1100-$1400 mark though none available at the moment.

I've seen a lot of people shooting the AW93 so would be interested in getting my hands on one to try out.

[ausdiver99]

I do a lot of EC around the state and see plenty of AW 93s presented by the top competitiors which speaks volumes for their reputation. Second hand AW 93's are pretty rare I think! Pardini is worth a look, especially if you have biggish hands, I find them a bit hard to grab a hold of but my hands are not large. Spencer and David Moore did a review of them in the PA magazine.

In addition to Hermann Finken and Kathy Wilson you might like check out these sites: -

Potter Firearms http://www.potfire.com.au
UsedGuns http://www.usedguns.com.au

[higginsdj]

OK, I'm trialling a FAS602 this weekend. This specific pistol has an impressive pedigree and I believe it has been well cared for but it is well used (and was replaced for an AW93 by its owner). I had a static 'feel' of it already and the one thing that impressed me the most was the grip. Unlike the adjustable ortho grips on the Hammerli 208 and 280 I have tried, my hand only fitted the FAS's grip in one position only and, low and behold, I finally know what natural aim looks like......

I know the FAS is fussy (mainly about cleanliness so I am told) and it consumes small parts like springs and clips but Potters has a good supply so that aspect doesn't worry me. Its a very good price and a group of very experienced (unconnected to the sale) club members think it's a good buy for me and if the pistol does not turn out to be the one for me then it's not as big a loss as potentially trying to sell a new pistol that didn't fit.

Anyway - enough of the sales pitch - anyone want to try to convince me not to buy it? When I trial this pistol what specifically should I look at. ie I may need to look at how worn it is but since I have no frame of reference as a novice - what do I specifically look for? When shooting it others have mentioned ignoring the result on the target - do I then assume that these pistols will always be able to produce better results than the shooter no matter how old the pistol is? ie poor groups is not a telltale sign of something wrong with the pistol?

I must also say that there is a good comradery amongst pistol shooters (in general). I've had all sorts of offers from people lining up trials of their pistols at the ACT Champs in 2 weeks.

Cheers

David

[David Levene]

Anyway - enough of the sales pitch - anyone want to try to convince me not to buy it? When I trial this pistol what specifically should I look at. ie I may need to look at how worn it is but since I have no frame of reference as a novice - what do I specifically look for? When shooting it others have mentioned ignoring the result on the target - do I then assume that these pistols will always be able to produce better results than the shooter no matter how old the pistol is? ie poor groups is not a telltale sign of something wrong with the pistol?

The main thing to watch on a 602 is does it function reliably. If it does then buy it. If it doesn't then still buy it but be prepared to do a re-spring service. If you don't know when it was last done then you will also need to change the buffer & clip (change the clip every 6 months whether it needs it or not).

Poor groups? Highly unlikely unless someone has damaged the barrel crown. The barrel is unlikely to be worn out. I only changed mine after 250,000+ rounds because I was given another selected barrel. I noticed no difference in the grouping.

The 602 may demand a bit more TLC than other guns but, IMHO, it is well worth it.

I can't remember exactly when the 602 was discontinued but it must have been around 1995/6

You will gather that I am something of a 602 fan.

[Mike Taylor]

I would add that when changing the buffer, be sure the new one is of the correct resiliency. I had an experience where a 'new' buffer had lost its resiliency through improper storage or just plain old age. It was so inelastic that it shattered after a shot or two.

[higginsdj]

I think there are are lot of FAS602 fans. Replace the clip every 6 months - thats a lot of clips to stockpile :) Yes, the springs were the primary consumables items mentioned.

One suggestion given to me about the buffer was to use a slice from a Pencil eraser (I assume the erasers on the end of a pencil)....

Anyone know if/where I can get hold of a manual (download perhaps). There is nothing on the FAS/Domino web site that I could see.

[Freepistol]

OK, I'm trialling a FAS602 this weekend.

Anyway - enough of the sales pitch - anyone want to try to convince me not to buy it? I must also say that there is a good comradery amongst pistol shooters (in general). I've had all sorts of offers from people lining up trials of their pistols at the ACT Champs in 2 weeks.

Cheers

David

Yep, David, don't buy it. Then let me know who has it for sale!!

I've been watching out for a good one to buy, too.

Good luck with the pistol, David!
Ben

[Mike Taylor]

As I recall (no longer have the gun), the buffer is closer in diameter to a dime than to the eraser on the end of a pencil. The elastomeric property (resiliency/elasticity) of the buffer is quite important to reliable functioning of the pistol. Too soft or too hard will cause feeding problems. I seem to recall that the FAS buffers came in different colours to denote the particular elasticity (soft, medium, hard). The pistol could be 'tuned' for the ammo being used by proper choice of buffer. I suspect David Levene can offer more (and better) information on this topic of buffers.

[David Levene]

Replace the clip every 6 months - thats a lot of clips to stockpile :)

The cost of changing the buffer clip is more than justified the first time you have one break. I will accept it is more of a problem on the (.32) 603 where the face of the clip is bigger but, if both legs break then there is a possibility that the front face will fall down and jam between the hammer box, the slide and the inside rear face of the receiver. That stops you stripping the gun down to take the clip out. the Catch 22 position is normally only relieved by brute force in the form of soft faced hammer. Change the buffer clip regularly and you would be extremely unlucky to have one break.

With regards to the buffer itself, I must say that I never noticed any difference in feel between the different colours. I was also in the lucky position of having virtually free access to the FAS spares they took to international matches. I can never remember them differentiating between the colours or offering a choice. Sometimes they were red, sometimes green, sometimes buff etc. I am pretty certain that any (perceived) difference was coincidental rather than planned (but I stand to be corrected).

[Mike Taylor]

I will defer to David's experience which is much greater than mine. I only had a few 'stock' buffers (maybe three) and the differences in elasticity that I observed might have been due entirely to differences in aging. I speculated that the differences were for 'tuning'.
However, I did achieve more reliable functioning by selecting a buffer for its resiliency; but after so many years, I can not recall what ammo nor which buffer provided the best match. I do recall that I also experimented with buffers that I cut from some elastomeric sheets available to me.

[deadeyedick]

I have had similar experiences as Mike and David. I have owned a Domino 601, a Domino 602 , a 607 FAS and a 603 FAS. After purchasing a few buffers, I started making my own from materials that seemed to have similar qualities to the original factory ones, and had no problems at all.