Everyone says try a pistol first to see how it feels before buying BUT isn't that just grip and trigger? Given then that grips can be replaced, what difference is there really between pistols (assuming top quality pistols).
Now as advanced shooters you may be able to detect things such as recoil and balance (and god know what else), but as a novice, what difference is anything other than grip and trigger likely to make?
Cheers
David
Choosing a Pistol
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Fred Mannis
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Re: Choosing a Pistol
Weight and balance differences are obvious, even to a novice. And for a cartridge pistol, recoil differences are also obvious.higginsdj wrote:Everyone says try a pistol first to see how it feels before buying BUT isn't that just grip and trigger? Given then that grips can be replaced, what difference is there really between pistols (assuming top quality pistols).
Now as advanced shooters you may be able to detect things such as recoil and balance (and god know what else), but as a novice, what difference is anything other than grip and trigger likely to make?
Cheers
David
If you haven't realized by now that recoil recovery is an issue with .22, you really should start reading previous threads instead of letting people bring the info you think you need to you.
As for the feel-before-buying, you can always do it the other way round and end up with a dozen top grade target pistols, like many of us. Otherwise, I'd check for total weight, balance, balancing options, grip angle, grip volume restrictions (potential issue when mag in grip frame), position of trigger against grip, sights (dimensions, adjustability options, height of sight line above hand), feel of trigger (especially before buying an eTrigger) and, depending on how good a mechanic you are, how big a job it is to take it apart and clean it. The grip itself is not an argument, it's usually made from wood so it can be reshaped.
As for the feel-before-buying, you can always do it the other way round and end up with a dozen top grade target pistols, like many of us. Otherwise, I'd check for total weight, balance, balancing options, grip angle, grip volume restrictions (potential issue when mag in grip frame), position of trigger against grip, sights (dimensions, adjustability options, height of sight line above hand), feel of trigger (especially before buying an eTrigger) and, depending on how good a mechanic you are, how big a job it is to take it apart and clean it. The grip itself is not an argument, it's usually made from wood so it can be reshaped.
Well I guess that is the issue with being a novice. I've fired a couple of different pistols and differences in recoil did not register - neither did balance, position of trigger or total weight.
As long as my finger can touch the trigger - whats the issue?
As long as the sights are adjustable - whats the issue?
My instructor advises strongly against regular strip downs so occasional strip downs is not an issue. I'm an ex serviceman (long, long ago) so I don't have issues stripping pistols etc
When I say grip and trigger I meant the grip based items you pointed out and from a trigger perspective I was just referring to single or 2 stage (I like the feel of 2 stage triggers).
BUT - I am not fussy - I can adapt - so surely as long as the grip and trigger are suited to my 'needs' then I can work with the rest (as a novice I'm not going to be able to tell the difference between the other items in any case - not without some extensive use!?)
Afterall, are there any top quality pistols out there less accurate than my ability will ever be to fire them?
As long as my finger can touch the trigger - whats the issue?
As long as the sights are adjustable - whats the issue?
My instructor advises strongly against regular strip downs so occasional strip downs is not an issue. I'm an ex serviceman (long, long ago) so I don't have issues stripping pistols etc
When I say grip and trigger I meant the grip based items you pointed out and from a trigger perspective I was just referring to single or 2 stage (I like the feel of 2 stage triggers).
BUT - I am not fussy - I can adapt - so surely as long as the grip and trigger are suited to my 'needs' then I can work with the rest (as a novice I'm not going to be able to tell the difference between the other items in any case - not without some extensive use!?)
Afterall, are there any top quality pistols out there less accurate than my ability will ever be to fire them?
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Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
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- Location: New Zealand
David,
Dare I say it's a bit like women (or whatever...). When you start, they all seem great, but the more experienced you get, the more you become aware of their differences and shortcomings. Whilst some heroic people can live happily ever after with their first one, most of us find that we need to try a few, until we find one that suits.
Actually, I think your question is interesting. If you only ever used one pistol, I'm sure you could learn to adapt to its characteristics and your performance would improve. Some lucky people seem able to shoot well with anything. However, I think that the speed at which you improve, and the level of performance you eventually achieve would be different for different guns. Some are more forgiving of poor technique than others. Almost all will be far more 'accurate' than you are. But 'accurate' is the result of the gun-operator combination, so how you and the gun interact is of paramount importance.
Like any tool, you are looking for one that becomes an extension of yourself, does not fatigue or irritate you and one which seems to operate itself, without your conscious thought.
Try several and concentrate on the performance rather than the result: in other words, what it feels like, not where the bullet goes. Does the recoil come down your arm, or does it flip the muzzle up? Which do you prefer? Does the gun seem to come back automatically on aim after the shot, or do you have to wrestle it back? Are you aware of pulling the trigger, and does that upset your aim, or does the gun seem to go off and take you by surprise (that's what you want). Is it so heavy it's an effort to hold still for the 60th shot, or is it so light that it dances all over the place? Does the gun lie in your hand consistently from shot to shot, or does it have its own idea of where it wants to point?
If none of this makes sense, you have two options - give up and do something else, or persevere and I'll bet that soon you will come across guns you hate and guns you want to know better, but you may not be able to explain why (just like most of us!).
Dare I say it's a bit like women (or whatever...). When you start, they all seem great, but the more experienced you get, the more you become aware of their differences and shortcomings. Whilst some heroic people can live happily ever after with their first one, most of us find that we need to try a few, until we find one that suits.
Actually, I think your question is interesting. If you only ever used one pistol, I'm sure you could learn to adapt to its characteristics and your performance would improve. Some lucky people seem able to shoot well with anything. However, I think that the speed at which you improve, and the level of performance you eventually achieve would be different for different guns. Some are more forgiving of poor technique than others. Almost all will be far more 'accurate' than you are. But 'accurate' is the result of the gun-operator combination, so how you and the gun interact is of paramount importance.
Like any tool, you are looking for one that becomes an extension of yourself, does not fatigue or irritate you and one which seems to operate itself, without your conscious thought.
Try several and concentrate on the performance rather than the result: in other words, what it feels like, not where the bullet goes. Does the recoil come down your arm, or does it flip the muzzle up? Which do you prefer? Does the gun seem to come back automatically on aim after the shot, or do you have to wrestle it back? Are you aware of pulling the trigger, and does that upset your aim, or does the gun seem to go off and take you by surprise (that's what you want). Is it so heavy it's an effort to hold still for the 60th shot, or is it so light that it dances all over the place? Does the gun lie in your hand consistently from shot to shot, or does it have its own idea of where it wants to point?
If none of this makes sense, you have two options - give up and do something else, or persevere and I'll bet that soon you will come across guns you hate and guns you want to know better, but you may not be able to explain why (just like most of us!).
Recently I had the chance to shoot a few rounds through some high end Euro guns. I don't remember all the models but the AW93 was one. The other was a Morini with an electronic trigger. I found it very hard to get a natural point of aim with the extreme grip rake these pistols have. The more upright grip of a 1911 style pistol is what I am used to and what naturally feels right to me.
I don't know what you are used to but if you are like me you might want to consider a Marvel conversion, especially if you intend to shoot a .45 in the future.
Russ
I don't know what you are used to but if you are like me you might want to consider a Marvel conversion, especially if you intend to shoot a .45 in the future.
Russ
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deadeyedick
- Posts: 1186
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- Location: Australia
[
Well put Kiwi...especially the first and last bit.
quote]Shooting Kiwi
Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 100
Location: New Zealand
Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:56 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David,
Dare I say it's a bit like women (or whatever...). When you start, they all seem great, but the more experienced you get, the more you become aware of their differences and shortcomings. Whilst some heroic people can live happily ever after with their first one, most of us find that we need to try a few, until we find one that suits.
Actually, I think your question is interesting. If you only ever used one pistol, I'm sure you could learn to adapt to its characteristics and your performance would improve. Some lucky people seem able to shoot well with anything. However, I think that the speed at which you improve, and the level of performance you eventually achieve would be different for different guns. Some are more forgiving of poor technique than others. Almost all will be far more 'accurate' than you are. But 'accurate' is the result of the gun-operator combination, so how you and the gun interact is of paramount importance.
Like any tool, you are looking for one that becomes an extension of yourself, does not fatigue or irritate you and one which seems to operate itself, without your conscious thought.
Try several and concentrate on the performance rather than the result: in other words, what it feels like, not where the bullet goes. Does the recoil come down your arm, or does it flip the muzzle up? Which do you prefer? Does the gun seem to come back automatically on aim after the shot, or do you have to wrestle it back? Are you aware of pulling the trigger, and does that upset your aim, or does the gun seem to go off and take you by surprise (that's what you want). Is it so heavy it's an effort to hold still for the 60th shot, or is it so light that it dances all over the place? Does the gun lie in your hand consistently from shot to shot, or does it have its own idea of where it wants to point?
If none of this makes sense, you have two options - give up and do something else, or persevere and I'll bet that soon you will come across guns you hate and guns you want to know better, but you may not be able to explain why (just like most of us!).
Well put Kiwi...especially the first and last bit.
Last edited by deadeyedick on Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yep - it's all good but it does expect that one has time with all the pistols. Frankly thats not an option (in reality I might get a half dozen shots in but themn I might only get to handle and not fire most). In the end, as a novice, I have no idea what causes the gun to recoil in my hand. Sometimes it stays dead on, sometimes I'm chasing it - same pistol - hey I'm a novice.
I have no doubt that in due time I will be able to guage whats good or not but the longer I don't have my own pistol the longer I am not shooting.
So in the end I guess my first purchase is strictly going to be made on feel - grip and trigger and what little knowledge and experience I have gained to that point......
I have no doubt that in due time I will be able to guage whats good or not but the longer I don't have my own pistol the longer I am not shooting.
So in the end I guess my first purchase is strictly going to be made on feel - grip and trigger and what little knowledge and experience I have gained to that point......
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Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:33 am
- Location: New Zealand
Well, there's no substitute for experience, but I accept that it can be hard to get - keep trying. I'd hope most club members would be happy for you to have a sensible go with their guns - you are in a club, aren't you? If not, that's step one.
How to choose? All sorts of ways, I suppose, but you seem to need a shortcut. So let's try...
Line up as many candidate guns as possible (in the shop?).
Fit the gun into your hand. It doesn't fit? Then try another, or a different-sized grip. Perhaps you need to move the trigger blade.
Close your eyes and come into aim. Now open your eyes. Where is the gun pointing? Select the one that has its sights aligned best, but don't worry if it's pointing somewhere different to which you thought it should - that's an operator problem which practice will fix. This should allow you to select the grip rake angle that is most 'natural' for you.
If you still have to chose between several, favour those with the most adjustable trigger characteristics. You might not know what you want or need now, but if you can't achieve it when you do know what you want, it's a pain.
Favour those which have interchangeable sight blades and leaves - as above.
Go for the lowest possible bore line. This will make the recoil disturb the aim least - important for rapid sequences and less fatiguing.
Ignore price - the value remains long after the price is forgotten.
Still have to chose between a few? Well, go for the sexy one!
How to choose? All sorts of ways, I suppose, but you seem to need a shortcut. So let's try...
Line up as many candidate guns as possible (in the shop?).
Fit the gun into your hand. It doesn't fit? Then try another, or a different-sized grip. Perhaps you need to move the trigger blade.
Close your eyes and come into aim. Now open your eyes. Where is the gun pointing? Select the one that has its sights aligned best, but don't worry if it's pointing somewhere different to which you thought it should - that's an operator problem which practice will fix. This should allow you to select the grip rake angle that is most 'natural' for you.
If you still have to chose between several, favour those with the most adjustable trigger characteristics. You might not know what you want or need now, but if you can't achieve it when you do know what you want, it's a pain.
Favour those which have interchangeable sight blades and leaves - as above.
Go for the lowest possible bore line. This will make the recoil disturb the aim least - important for rapid sequences and less fatiguing.
Ignore price - the value remains long after the price is forgotten.
Still have to chose between a few? Well, go for the sexy one!
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deadeyedick
- Posts: 1186
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:55 pm
- Location: Australia
Anyone that shoots within the 8 ring as a novice, should in my opinion, forget the plinkers, and move straight to a more competitive pistol... one within their budget. This will save time, and the re learning of muscle memory as required by a different pistol
Last edited by deadeyedick on Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: wow...
I'm afraid that the biggest problem with being a beginner is that you don't normally have the experience or knowledge to know what is best for you. Don't be surprised if you find that your first gun is not the one you are using 18 months down the line.vin wrote:Maybe some have forgot what it's like to be a beginner...
Being a beginner I have many of the same questions and concerns as higginsdj
There are guns that more experienced shooters can warn you against buying, but very rarely ones they can sensibly tell you is the best one for you.
changes
I'd buy something pretty decent second hand on the basis that you will sell it in a years time, when you are better able to make an informed decision. Thats what I did - I got a s/h LP2 which is decent but not absolutely top of the line and when i sold it i got back the same as I paid for it. In the meantime i learnt about what I wanted and got some opportunities to try some others out. If you go in to it expecting to upgrade later, then the pressure is off. IMO of course!
edster99 said it the way I am going about it. I was going to say buy a cheap gun to get started, then if you are laying awake at night thinking about shooting & you are sure you have the bug, then buy the good stuff. that way if it is just a fad you won't be out much. I have not made it to a match yet, my local range is having a conventional championship in place of the IP match this month. I bought a Daisy 747 about 6 weeks ago & I have only been practicing at 23 feet, which is the farthest I can get inside the house, but I am holding the 9 ring & have been getting 48 to 49 pts. for 5 shots on the Gamo targets. I don't expect to set the world on fire with this gun but I think even with a poor trigger it is plenty good enough to get to some matches to see if I will stick it out with this discipline. So far I am dying to buy a good gun, even to the point where I may sell a couple powder guns to finance it. I guess what I am getting at is unless I know I am in love with a certain discipline then anything is good enough to get started.
I think second hand is my only option now. I just checked the prices today and all new pistols just jumped $500 in price..... Sign of the times I guess and with a small market (I'm in the Aussie capital and the nearest dealer is 500km away) no expectation of the prices ever coming down again.
Cheers
David
Cheers
David
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deadeyedick
- Posts: 1186
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:55 pm
- Location: Australia
Try www.hermannsguns.com David. Hermann is an acomplished shooter with many years as an importer of Walther,Feinkwerkbau,Rohm, Sig Sauer , Peters Stahl and many more. He also stocks quite a few second hand pistols. The advice that I and others have given you is based on the fact that you were a competitive archer for 20 years, ...and the same principles that applied to choosing archery equipment also apply to pistols. Make a short list of suggested upper level pistols, search out owners of these pistols within your club, and request a few shots from each. From then on your innate inteligence will kick in and let you know which is right for you at that time. As new pistol prices rise, so will used...so second hand is not always the best option. Its now a time to get on with the task of trying various pistols, and making a decision.
p.s. Kathy Wilson at Wilson firearms in Sydney also have a comprehensive list of used as well as new. Good luck again.
p.s. Kathy Wilson at Wilson firearms in Sydney also have a comprehensive list of used as well as new. Good luck again.
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
David, there's nothing wrong with a "second hand" pistol. Don't feel bad that you can't get a new one. It takes forever to wear one out unless it is mistreated. Good luck with your search!higginsdj wrote:I think second hand is my only option now. I just checked the prices today and all new pistols just jumped $500 in price..... Sign of the times I guess and with a small market (I'm in the Aussie capital and the nearest dealer is 500km away) no expectation of the prices ever coming down again.
Cheers
David
Ben
Imho, second hand "match pistol" worth every penny of their value. Usually you could be able to resell it at the same price more or less.Freepistol wrote:David, there's nothing wrong with a "second hand" pistol. Don't feel bad that you can't get a new one. It takes forever to wear one out unless it is mistreated. Good luck with your search!higginsdj wrote:I think second hand is my only option now. I just checked the prices today and all new pistols just jumped $500 in price..... Sign of the times I guess and with a small market (I'm in the Aussie capital and the nearest dealer is 500km away) no expectation of the prices ever coming down again.
Cheers
David
Ben
Yeah, I've looked over quite a few Aussie sites and all bar 2 of the advertised second hand pistols are so called plinkers and one of those 2 is a .22SR - so not much to choose from at the moment. I'm not interested in any pistol that is not capable of shooting Master grade scores.
Are 'plinkers' capable of shooting those types of scores? I don't want to buy anything where I can blame the pistol for poor scores.
Cheers
David
Are 'plinkers' capable of shooting those types of scores? I don't want to buy anything where I can blame the pistol for poor scores.
Cheers
David