Methods for holding the pistol stiller

[Steve Swartz]

Gordon:

As with most technique elements in this sport, there are trade-offs. Of course, there are reasons why the top shooters don't do what Bill is advocating.

Contact me off line at leslieswartz@verizon.net if you want to discuss both sides of the issue.

[gordonfriesen]

Gordon:

As with most technique elements in this sport, there are trade-offs. Of course, there are reasons why the top shooters don't do what Bill is advocating.

Contact me off line at leslieswartz@verizon.net if you want to discuss both sides of the issue.

Hi Steve,

Sorry, I was away from the computer for the last couple of days.

I am much interested in hearing your views on the open-eye/blinder thing. But I prefer the general conversation format of the forum. there are always others who are interested, and it is just more efficient.

Best Regards,

Gordon

[pilkguns]

But I prefer the general conversation format of the forum. there are always others who are interested, and it is just more efficient.

Best Regards,

Gordon

Thank you Gordon, for your preference, I hate it when some one takes valuable information offline on this and other forums of my interest.
best
Scott

[gordonfriesen]

Tip of the hat to you, Scott for moderating such a fantastic forum!

Best Regards,

Gordon

[2650 Plus]

Gordon, This technique is not a fundamental but a concept I developed after watching a tecknition repair a watch using a magnifing glass called an eye loupe. I questioned him about what he saw and he assured me that he only saw with the eye using the loupe . and left the other eye open to avoid eye strain. This made sense to me and that was why iI worked to incorporate the both eyes open into my shooting technique. There is also a problem of sympathetic dialation of the shooting eye if no light strikes the non shooting eye. I have not been able to detect this problem when shooting but was given the information at Camp Perry by a well known opthomologist. I assumed he knew what he was talking about because all the other information he presented was very accurate. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[David Levene]

As with many things, each to his own.

Despite trying (for several months) I have never been able to shoot well with both eyes open. I find that closing the non-shooting eye allows me to concentrate much better.

Despite this I shoot with a blinder over my non-shooting eye. This is a habit I started many years ago in the naive belief that my coach would think I was shooting with both eyes open. I thought that I was fooling him. In reality he was fooling me into believing I was fooling him. Oh, the varied qualities of a good coach.

[j-team]

Take a look at (almost) every young Russian or Chinese pistol shooter, they shoot with both eyes open and often without any glasses at all.

It would be fair to say that the Russians and the Chinese have produced more than a few not bad pistol shots over the years. And, don't tell me it's because they can't afford glasses!

[Spencer]

Take a look at (almost) every young Russian or Chinese pistol shooter, they shoot with both eyes open and often without any glasses at all.

It would be fair to say that the Russians and the Chinese have produced more than a few not bad pistol shots over the years. And, don't tell me it's because they can't afford glasses!

but the chinese tendancy towards short sight might have something to do with it.

Spencer

[RobStubbs]

but the chinese tendancy towards short sight might have something to do with it.

Spencer

That doesn't explain the 'no blinder over the non shooting eye' though.

Rob.

[Patrick Haynes]

but the chinese tendancy towards short sight might have something to do with it.

Spencer

That doesn't explain the 'no blinder over the non shooting eye' though.

Rob.

Hi Rob.

I've just finished off spending a few days with the Shanxi Provincial Shooting Team, in Taiyuan, which is located about 10 hours by train south of Beijing. I've been reviewing their feeder systems (Taiyuan Sports School which features archery, fencing and shooting), as well as watching the provincial team train and discussing training/coaching issues. Its been very good. The volume of notes and photos will take some while to ingest.

That being said, the use of blinders came up. The Chinese have a strong aversion to the blinder. A Chinese shooter will only use a blinder if the non-shooting eye is very dominant. In general, they believe that the use of a blinder weakens the eye. As such, they believe that by using a blinder unnecessarily, the athlete's vision is being impaired over time. This is the explanation that was given, but they didn't provide any proof. Then again, only one of the shooters wore a blinder in a team of twenty or so pistol shooters. (Air pistol scores on one team test match while I was there, for the four senior men athletes, were 588, 586, 586 and the last one was in the 570s.)

I wear a blinder and recommend its use, and ensure that the material is translucent to support equal pupil dilation. Personally, I don't see the decrease in vision strength in my left (non-shooting) eye, but I don't shoot 5+ hours a day, 6 days a week, almost all year long.

Hope that helps.
Patrick

[2650 Plus]

I invite all shooters to take a look at photos of Brian Zins shooting with both eyes open. Also Bill Blankenship shooting with both eyes open, Also Huelet "Joe" Benner shooting with both eyes open, Also Hershel Anderson shooting with both eyes open, Also Bonnie Harmon shooting with both eyes open. All National champions, All 2650 Plus shooters and there are many more that did not wear gagets to impress the gallery. If you feel that shooting with one eye clesed or with a blinder over the none shooting eye helps, by all means do what works best for you. I post what works for me, and if it proves of value to you use it. My posts are dogmatic only about what has worked for me. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Richard H]

What about taking a look at photos of Valdimir Isakov, Valdimri Gontcharov, Jasna Sekaric, Franck Dumolin or Mikhail Netruev, these are all world champions that shoot with a blinder on their non-aiming eye. The fact that ones uses or does not use a blinder is really not a deciding factor on their performance, there are as many who do wear theym as those that don't.

I do agree that both eyes should be open, as this ensures equal light on both eyes so that pupil dilation is equal and it also reduces the fatigue on the eyes that squinting the non aiming eye causes.

[gordonfriesen]

Folks,

What struck me in 2650`s original reference was something quite other than pupil dilation. He is saying that with both eyes open and sending back stereoscopic info on the horizon (and I presume that this is going on in peripheral vision regardless of what the eyes are looking at) , the whole body becomes steadier, way beyond what the inner ear alone will enable.

So I asked him about the blinder, because a blinder would reduce this effect and logically reduce steadiness.

In my club, everybody wears a blinder and most a diopter. I don`t wear either. But my degree of "open-eye" is variable.At any rate, I wanted to know whether I should cave in to the blinder or develope the ability to shoot both eyes open. The chinese info from Patrick (Hi Patrick:) and that list of names from 2650 are definitely food for thought.

I think I will persist with the no blinder approach and work on my independent one-eyefocusing for a while.

Best Regards,

Gordon

[Richard H]

There's really only one way to find out, try it, what have you got to loose? If it works for you than wear one, if it doesn't than don't. Like everything else you have to give wearing one or not wearing one a fair chance ,not just one or two sessions.

Like most things in shooting it comes down to a trade-off. I'm sure shooting with both eyes open and no blinder is ideal, but only if you can do it comfortably. If shooting with no blinder is accompanied by difficulty focusing or excessive strain for a shooter than there is no benefit and he would most likely benefit from a blinder on his non aiming eye.

[2650 Plus]

The conclusion seems to be what ever works is correct. And I agree for every shooter but me. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Guest22]

My Best scores were Free pistol 560 N0 final,Rapid fire 22 shorts 588 Center fire Precision 94 Duel 100 [ Last out of an old score book as I no longer remembered] This was still on the square head man type dueling target in a shoot out for the US team the year Bill Blankenship won the world championship.I remember shooting a colt 38 special auto in the precision and a S&W model 52 for duel and thats about it. The ISSF has changed so much that I am not really qualified to discuss the fine points axcept when the technique is still very simular to what I shot. Basic rules dont change Fundamentals dont change and simplify, simplify, simplify. It doesn't take a doctorate to figure out how to shoot a ten. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Congratulations on your scores. But doesn't the ISSF rules enforce the use of the same gun for both Precision and Rapid Fire stages in CF?

[Steve Swartz]

A legal occluder of "translucent" design (to let light in) and no blinders would fit the bill of both
- horizon information for balance;
- keeping both eyes relaxed and open with ~ eaul amounts of light
- preventing binocular vision

And sure enough (accounting for Public Affairs requirements for pictures with no blinders /occluders) that may be what we are seeing on the line.

That's how the trade-off is generally broken.

I believe- I could be wrong- but from what I remember during actual competition even the Russians and Chinese used the occluder with/without blinders.

See FP570s separate thread on this issue.

[alb]

Yesterday, I tried Bill Horton's suggestion of keeping both eyes open while shooting. I didn't shoot any better than usual, but then I haven't shot for about a month -- my new job has been consuming all of my time. But, I did learn something interesting. I've been shooting with a translucent blinder for the past 18 months in order to eliminate the double image, without causing sympathetic pupil dilation. I found that I could also eliminate the double image without the blinder, but only if I focused both eyes on the dot (I use a red dot sight).

It didn't come naturally to me, so I wonder what I've been focusing on previously (I had thought I was focusing on the dot). I borrowed a friend's gun briefly -- it has open sights, and again I found that I could eliminate the double image if I focused both eyes on the front sight. With the blinder, I couldn't ever see the front sight clearly at all. By with both eyes open and focused on the front sight, I could see it clearly and in focus.

Since the prevailing wisdom seems to be to focus on the front sight (Brian Zins excepted), then shooting with both eyes open without a blinder may provide an advantage -- if you see a double image, you aren't focusing properly, so don't break the shot until you correct your focus.

Thanks for the suggestion, Bill. I intend to practice it until it becomes natural.

Regards,

Al B.

[SteveT]

Since the prevailing wisdom seems to be to focus on the front sight (Brian Zins excepted), then shooting with both eyes open without a blinder may provide an advantage -- if you see a double image, you aren't focusing properly, so don't break the shot until you correct your focus.

BZ absolutely says to focus on the front sight. If I remember his quote correctly "there is nothing at the target that can help you make a good shot.

Only when shooting dots does he focus on the target, and even then, he does not say it is correct, only that he does it. He absolutely says to focus either on the dot OR on the target, but don't let your focus drift back and forth.

Steve Turner

[alb]

BZ absolutely says to focus on the front sight. If I remember his quote correctly "there is nothing at the target that can help you make a good shot.

Only when shooting dots does he focus on the target, and even then, he does not say it is correct, only that he does it. He absolutely says to focus either on the dot OR on the target, but don't let your focus drift back and forth.

True enough, Zins does say that. However, I shoot with a dot because I've been unable to see the front sight clearly with open sights without using an iris and a corrective lens, in which case I can't see the target at all.

Zins also says he prefers to look at the target when using the dot, unlike just about every other top shooter that I've ever heard of. As you and Zins said, you shouldn't let your focus drift back and forth. My point was that with a dot, it's not so easy to know that your focus is drifting back and forth. With both eyes open, however, it becomes readily apparent.

Regards,

Al B.