Urban legend or problem

[mikeschroeder]

Hi

I found this article, and figured that someone here would know whether or not this is BS

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_fil ... 4-417.html

I would hope that we're not that dumb as a country. That's the big we by the way. We the NRA Action Pistol shooters, we USA Shooting, etc.

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

[john bickar]

Urban legend. I was there and nothing of the sort happened.


Edit: statement retracted. See later comment.

[Orpanaut]

The story isn't a total fabrication. USAS did, in fact, launch "Project Rapid + Action" to see if some of the top shooters from the IPSC world could help the US Olympic team:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_82533211

But the idea that USAS rejected potential medalists out of snobbishness is bizarre. And as far as I know, USAS doesn't even have a "farm system" to nurture its own talent.

[guess who too]

John Bickar and John McNally conducted a clinic with the action shooters for 2 days, Dec. 2001. Both are saying that the B.S. spewed about what Mitchell supposedly said is just that B.S.. Since when do you believe what the liberal media says about any shooting. They never let the facts stand in the way of a good story. Unless it fits their agenda.

[BPBrinson]

Why did the action shooters not pursue RF? I did not pay. Also John McNally held the national record at the time at 594. The best action shooter (Eric Weeldreyer) shot 560. Not bad. but that is alot of time and work to close the gap from 560 to World class.
Bruce Piatt 551
Jerry Miculek 551
John Pride 518
Bruce Gray 502
Richard Young 449
Scores from G&A Handgun magazine: July 2002

Brooks

[Guest]

Those that know the real story should put their comments into his blog. and of course throw a link in there for Target talk!

[Alexander]

I wonder - would excellent IPSC shooters (such as those named above) maybe fare better in ISSF standard pistol than in ISSF rapid fire?

Alexander

P.S.:
Indirectly, my question has already received an answer. One of the comments on Grant Cunningham's blog would deny this, namely by Scott Pilkington:

"To further illustrate the point, I ran an event for 6 years at the Bianchi Cup using the semi-auto Steyr airpistol with a 1911 grip. This was called the Pilkgun’s AirStrike event. It basically used provisional Olympic Rapid Fire Air Pistol rules on a falling plate system. I found out very quickly that the average Bianchi competitor could not hold the white on a 10m AP target. We changed the rules to let this guys shoot two handed on a 1911 grip. Two handed, most of these guys COULD NOT HOLD THE BLACK ! and this was in the sight-in stage where there was no time pressure. Yep, they can yank a pistol out of fancy holster real fast and go bang bang bang, but being able to hit a precision target? Most of them can only dream.

So about the check to USA Shooting, I expect you are writing it now.
Scott Pilkington | Homepage | 08.27.08 - 10:50 am | # "

[jhmartin]

Hmmmm ... sour grapes?

As far as I know, the USAS selection matches are open matches. (Even the Olympic Trials) The only requirement is that you pay your, what ...???, $20 to be a USAS member.

(Hey .... want to try for the 2009 World Clay Target team, signup/show up in Ft Carson in a few weeks and .... PERFORM)

There is nothing stopping folks that think they are good enough from entering these events .... many know that they are not and enter anyway for the practice, experience, etc. What's the gripe?

There's a bigger barrier for the average person to get on the US Olympic basketball team .... (Oh ... you're not in the NBA???) Give me a break.
=======

Now in regards to the lack of grassroots programs .... not the job of USAS, they are there to take the cream and "refine it", so to speak. The Development Teams and National Teams are their focus. (If money was no object, then another matter)

Grassroots programs come from the club programs that are mainly run by volunteers within those clubs.

Want to gripe about lack of pistol programs ... first, start a PPP program in your own club.
Want to gripe about rifle .... setup an air & SB program at your range.
Want to gripe about lack of opportunity in clay target programs, does your trap (american) field even have a skeet field? Why no bunker at your location?
(I've been trying for 15 YEARS to get a skeet field at my local club, but I'll have to wait until a few keel over first ... bunker??? ... bunker??? You gotta be kidding me ... closest to me is 2 hours away)

You cannot expect a shooter to go to a selection match of any type without the skills and practice beforehand ... that's the best way to lose the shooter altogether.

Whoops ..... got a rant going there ... don't set out those soapboxes.....

[mikeschroeder]

...

Now in regards to the lack of grassroots programs .... not the job of USAS, they are there to take the cream and "refine it", so to speak. The Development Teams and National Teams are their focus. (If money was no object, then another matter)

Grassroots programs come from the club programs that are mainly run by volunteers within those clubs.

Hi
Sorry about dragging a soapbox out for everyone to trip over, but I was pretty sure that the article contained large amounts of fertilizer.

With respect to the above, if the USAS wants grassroots, they need to help a little more. NRA Foundation money funds our 4H pistol team. USAS doesn't do the NRA anymore, so no money there. USAS needs more local clubs, to fund more local competition. The NRA isn't in a position to help, we're having enough trouble keeping bullseye and smallbore going.

Thanks

Mike
Wichita KS

[jhmartin]

Mike will know I'm not dinging on him... he works hard with his youth program.

The perception is that shooting is easy .... and it ain't.
Sure, as a 4-H coach I can take a dedicated kid, who is willing to put in 2-3 nights per week and get them up to the 520's in sporter air in a year. .... shift them to precision air here and you have a 560's shooter

That is technique .... the kid has to be ready to do the mind games after that to improve.

I had another 4-H coach at our state 4-H championships last year think that a month at practice (1-day a week) was going to win the team match. When he saw my #3 & 4 shooters in the first relay, yeah, he was impressed. But our #1 & #2 shooters blew him away. He wanted help setting up his own program and I'm cool with that ... sat & talked with him, invited him to our practices.

When he saw how much work my shooters put in (and yeah .... I'm there at ALL the practices, even if the shooters are not), he basically folded his program ... kinda ticked me off.

Me, I believe in competition. If a kid wants to play soccer, baseball, football, shoot .... whatever, I tell them to concentrate on one thing & be the best you can ... don't try and spread it around too thin.

One of my 11 year old shooters (at 68 lbs) came up to me at county fair and told me he'll be starting shooting late this year because he's playing football. I told him to give that all he has right now .... keep the focus there. It was sorta funny as his mom came up afterwards and said he barely made the weight limit, and has been wanting to try this for a few years. She said he's gettin' the snot kicked outa him (up against 100-140 lb players) every practice, but he's determined to finish the season. I like a fighter one who will stick it thru.

OK .. in short it takes sacrifice & hard work at all levels for a grassroots program to flourish. In my state (NM) the FNRA state committee is willing to put out the funds for all the shooting programs (CMP/USAS & NRA ... even Archery)... in that I'm lucky ... some state committees are totally different

[Alexander]

This is *really* annoying. No wonder that youngsters (from children to juveniles to juniors) shun ISSF style shooting, or run away soon. You, jhmartin, may be an excellent and dedicated coach.

But you are in need of some very serious attitude adjustment first. With your attitude, you are the absolute opposite of any grassroots and outreach programme, and you will achieve the contrary of what you aspire to. Believe me.

Alexander

[jhmartin]

you are in need of some very serious attitude adjustment first

Hmmmm ... I'll ask you to elaborate ... I'll add a bit too.

My program is not all hardcore compete, compete, compete. But I'm not one to dilute a program so that those who work hard are not rewarded.
It's not all about shooting either, I try and stress to my shooters that school is #1 ... ALWAYS. They know when report cards come out, I'll be asking about them. Their parents know (and have my blessing) to hold the practices over their heads if they are not performing in school.

If you are at issue with my advice to the youngsters, "Don't spread yourself too thin", well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I do feel that you have to work hard to achieve your rewards.
And too many kids these days have a lack of focus due to all the activities that they (AND their parents) want them to do.

In terms of the sacrifice required at a grassroots level .... that's mostly given by those who are willing to give time/$$ of themselves. I'm nothing special ... there are plenty of parents/coaches around in all sports that give WAY more than I do.

[mikeschroeder]

HI

We're fortunate to be able to bridge the gap between your two programs. We have 16 traps, and usually 13-15 shooters. We have 6 very serious air rifle shooters, a couple of serious BB Gun shooters, and 6-8 plinkers. As long as the plinkers don't cause any trouble, they stick around. Some eventually get serious, some quit. We coach them all, but spend more time on the ones who take it seriously.

Thanks

Mike

[john bickar]

Controversy is a good way to drive traffic to a web site, though. Fact-checking? What's that?

I retract this statement, as Grant Cunningham has been civil enough to follow up on my comment via e-mail to get another side of the story.

[BPBrinson]

John I e-mailed the link to John M. and he has posted a comment on the blog in question. That article was also posted on http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/tos/19201/

I had a hard afternoon and night trying to tell those guys why the should support the USAS and all shooting sports in the 50+post comment section. That web blog has raised several thousnd dollars for our local program and that post could hurt it. I think a retraction is in the works at Mr. Cunninghams site, but the real firestorm was at Theothersideofkim.com
Some people believe everything they read.

Brooks

[Mike M.]

Tell me about it. :-(

The "If we can't win, change the rules so we can" mindset is awfully prevalent...and does the USA no good at all.

I'll add that THE biggest problem with RF is the lack of RF bays for training. I doubt that there are more than a dozen working RF bays in the country...and most of those are at Fort Benning or Colorado Springs. I'd love to see a push made to rework the rules to use a shot timer and fixed late-shot penalties...the former because shot timers are MUCH cheaper than turning targets (to say nothing of Suis-Ascor targets), the latter to allow a full half-course to be shot before scoring (speeds things up considerably).

[pilkguns]

John, I'm glad you have opened up a dialogue with Grant. I hate to see someone dissing our sport and a very good management therof with stories that are just false.

To me the bigger question is how the US (and other countries) does so good at shooting when the Chinese select shooters and other atheletes at 9 and 10 years old and start pushing them down the skills road. With over 100,000 ISSF style shooters in China, we better hope that China does not break up into provinces like the USSR did. The two quota limit per dsicipline is definately to our advantage in this case.

[Alexander]

That article was also posted on http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/tos/19201/
...
but the real firestorm was at Theothersideofkim.com

Strange place. Smells awkward, slightly rotten.
Wouldn't stay in it with rubber boots and a breathing mask.

Alexander

[BPBrinson]

Alexander, could you tell us about the gun laws of your country, athlete support, training facilities and opportunities and how shooters are selected. The input would be appreciated.

Brooks

[Spencer]

...I'll add that THE biggest problem with RF is the lack of RF bays for training. I doubt that there are more than a dozen working RF bays in the country...and most of those are at Fort Benning or Colorado Springs...

It runs deeper than this - there must be 100+ ranges in Australia with 25m turning targets, + the Sydney Olympic range with Sius ascor and another hopefully to come on line with a set of refurbished Spieth electronics.

Despite the availability of ranges, Rapid Fire Pistol is not what anyone would call popular. In contrast, during the 70s those clubs that programmed RFP on the monthly calendar would have shooters lined up waiting their turn to shoot.

Unfortunately, these days most club shooters perceive RFP as being too hard. The need for specialised (.22 Short) pistols with wrap around grips has gone - so it ain't the equipment...

Spencer