Shooting doughnuts?

[Shooting Kiwi]

Not sure whether perhaps this isn't a question for a mathematician...

Went to practice precision shooting last weekend. Was trying to stop the occasional 8s and, I'm ashamed to admit, 7s. Of the first 20 shots, 19 were 9s, with one 10. Local bearded sage, a previous champion shooter, wandered over and suggested it was because I was trying too hard for 10s, so that I was tending to release as the sights and the 10 were aligned. The delay between perception and action meant that the barrel was therefore very unlikely to be pointing at the 10 when the bullet exited, because of natural random (perhaps not so random) movement and wobble.

I then fired the next ten shots, taking his advice and just holding as still as possible, trying to ignore the target, and releasing when I thought the amplitude of wobble was at a minimum. Result - 5 10s, 1 9, 3 8s and a 7.

So the distribution of the first 20 shots resembled a doughnut, and the last 10 had more good shots, but more bad shots: a looser group.

Is this what you would expect, and was the bearded sage's doughnut analysis correct?

[RobStubbs]

Is this what you would expect, and was the bearded sage's doughnut analysis correct?

Only you know what your triggering behaviour was like on the first set v the last set. If you were consciously squeezing the trigger and releasing the shot as he described then that will induce erroring and that could explain the phenomenon. Saying that - it could also be a random set of shots - i.e. too few shots to draw any conclusions.

Rob.

[Fred Mannis]

In the first group of 20 shots you were in fact successful - you achieved your goal of eliminating shots outside the 9 ring. That should have made you feel good and you should have continued in the same vein. Your 'coach' made you think about what you were doing wrong, instead of what you were doing right.

[Shooting Kiwi]

Yes Fred, I'm sure you're right. Actually, I think he made me think - often dangerous, and the source of such questions!

Can I clarify my question a bit? I'm interested in the distribution pattern of the shots, particularly in the first group. Assuming the gun is moving all the time, oscillating about a mean position, presumably the bearded sage is correct that, if released when all alignment looks right, the shots will tend to fall in a ring around the point of aim, or in another pattern, depending on one's individual 'wobble'. Is this a correct analysis?

[deadeyedick]

A wider than desired pattern of shots is caused mainly by not paying absolute attention to sight alignment. You should not be focusing on when your level of movement reduces, but gently increasing trigger pressure while focusing on sight position completely. Remember this, when the sight alignment is perfect, the POI wil only be within that range of movement...however if sight alignment is out only slightly, then your error magnification at 25 m. wil be greatly exaggerated. This is where your 7's come from, not the wobble we all experience.

[Fred Mannis]

I agree with dead-eye. On those occasions when I have found myself shooting a circle of 9's (aka doughnut, or ring around the moon), I have noticed that the front sight is not absolutely still. There is a slight 'quiver'. This is due to my paying attention to sight picture rather than sight alignment.

[Steve Swartz]

I initially thought this thread was about LE training or something =8^)

The original observation was "spot-on" if not entirely relevant to what was being observed!

Well, that needs some explanification.

It is absolutely true that if you command the signal to release the shot when the *sight picture* is perfect, 200-300 ms later when the pellet skirt clears the muzzle the gun is pointed somewhere else.

A "correct" shot process doesn't work that way.

"Sight Picture" is something that you should be purposely avoiding, right?

We aren't actually trying to focus on three things and line them all up, are we?

So even if what was happening on the target had very litttle to do with his "correct" diagnosis of what was actually going on . . .

. . . it was great advice any how.

[MSC]

I too believe that the "donut" of 9's is inferior to the scattered group with more 10's.

My donut groups inevitably come from when I'm releasing because the dot/sights are centered. And as Steve said, by the time the trigger goes off, you're likely not there, especially since you probably rushed the trigger to do so.

When I catch myself hurrying the shot and revert to accepting the wobble and just concentrating on a smooth increase in trigger pressure, a perfect shot process is inevitably rewarded with a 10. Those 7's, 8's, and 9's are simply a result of a less than perfect execution.

Practice to the point that each execution is perfect, and you'll have all 10's.

Practice on the former method will simply get you smaller donuts! Perhaps circling the 10 ring someday!

[Spencer]

sometimes a 'stastistical' approach helps ease the pain - telling yourself that you cannot beat the odds...

my personal experience (for this sort of thing) was the day my worst shot for CentreFire Precision was an 8 (28 of the rotten sods, all around the 8-ring) 1 x 9 and 1 x 10 for a 243. To rub salt int the wound, the 10 was in the last series and as perfectly in the centre as one could hope for.

Spencer

[bryan]

I would agree with the old bloke, though would need to watch you to agree with his reasoning.

with more practice, when it looks and feels right, it will go off, making little donuts, not big ones.

so have you thanked him and asked for more help yet?

you sure this guy is a kiwi?

[bryan]

doub le??

[Shooting Kiwi]

Bryan: Yes, he is a Kiwi, also sage, luminary, friend and mentor. There's something of a gulf between his approach (the performance is everything; borrowing a lot from his interest in Zen practices) and my mechanistic approach (that of a hard scientist). However, it's pretty clear to me that he's right - If only I could put into practice what he preaches. Oh, and of course I thank him: he responds well to the occasional bar of chocolate!

[2650 Plus]

Here is another thought. Are you trying to use Steves concept of the subconcious release ? If the subconcious release is not properly ingrained in your shooting sequence [ Like having done the proper dry fire 10,000 times, Steves wotds , not mine, ] You may be experiencing a concious release the is disturbine the stillness of your pistol just as you fire and causing the situation you have described. Somehow you must be able to achieve a surprise shot on every discharge of your pistol. Steve has proposed one possible method of acheiving the desired shot without disturbing the stillness,.There is another way that is done by iniatiating the trigger presure prior to the final settling into the aiming area, Then do your focus with your eyes and use intense concentration on perfecting sight allignment until the pistol fires. Remember that this concentration must be unbroken until discharge of the pistol occures. This also means that you should never think of trigger again once you inter into the next step of firing the shot. Good Shooting Bill Horton