Pistol Technical Skills

[Fred Mannis]

For the FP, you might try substituting distance for weight. If you increase the travel to break, you can use the feeling of movement to offset the lightness of the trigger. You must be careful not to stage the trigger, but if you can make it a determined movement from start to fire, the travel may be able to replace the weight.

Ed,
I have used this technique with my FP and it often works well. Problem is that occasionally the perceived motion is the trigger pushing into my finger pad rather than the pad moving the trigger. I have experimented with several finger positions, but do not yet have a 100% solution. Am contemplating developing a hard callus on my finger pad :-)

Fred

[jackh]

I once trained a Division level team in Korea and ,If I have understood Ed's post I used almost the same concept. Any time a shooter shot a ten or ten tens I made a big to do about it. I would say such things as Blankenship cant shoot any better than that, and bring the other shooters over to see the good target. I never made any response to a less than perfect target. Unfortunatly I was not smart enough to apply the consept to myself until just befort the all army matches that year. It worked so well that I trained with the proceedure for the next couple of weeks and broke 2650 two weeks later. Please read Ed's post again just in case the message didn't get through. Its located several posts above this one. Good Shooting Bill Horton

There's one of the problems we face out here in average person land. Sometimes we need to praise the student for just shooting in a northerly direction. Hitting the paper comes next.

[Steve Swartz]

The problem with praising a perfect ten (either you yourself or someone else) is that particularly for newer shooters, the accidental ten (misaligned to left, jerk trigger right) shouldn't really be reinforced.

Proper behavior should be reinforced, even if the result is a 9 (as it inevitably will be most of the time initially) . . .

Therefore, the focus on executing proper behaviors (shooting the perfectly executed shot) should be preferred over the sometimes and somewhat serendipitous hole in paper?

Also- the shooter should be developing a good sense for when his/her own mind sees the proper conditions. A coach can't see what the shooter sees (even with an FTVS system).

Don't we want to program our meat puppets to develop their *own* skills as quickly as possible?

(p.s. behaviorist B.F. Skinner is not to be confused with TT gadfly Chet Skinner; although, on closer inspection . . . !)

[2650 Plus]

What is going on here? If Steve doesn't make the post then it must be wrong. Has Steve became the only source of shooting knowledge viable is the US ? Or is Steve Swartz AKA Chet Skinner ? Good Shooting Bill Horton

[jackh]

The same numbers do not always apply to the different level shooters.

Thats why we have classifications. If I have a shooter whose groups are generally 7 ring size, and we dump praise only on the 10s.....

I would praise the 8s and better shots.

Proper technique and performance will show up in group size consistency.

When the shooter level reaches say something over 90% scores, then kick butt on 9s and noogies on 10s. But do it positively :)

[Fred]

Oh Contentious Masters,

Are there not many paths to enlightenment?
If one way has worked well for you, are all other ways incorrect?
Do we not all agree to approve of the best endeavors and to ignore, rather than take issue with, the others?
Should not your approach to instruction be the same as your approach to performance?

Grasshopper

[Fred Mannis]

The same numbers do not always apply to the different level shooters.

Thats why we have classifications. If I have a shooter whose groups are generally 7 ring size, and we dump praise only on the 10s.....

I would praise the 8s and better shots.

Proper technique and performance will show up in group size consistency.

When the shooter level reaches say something over 90% scores, then kick butt on 9s and noogies on 10s. But do it positively :)

Exactly! That's why new shooters (should) spend most of their time shooting groups on a blank card.

[RobStubbs]

Exactly! That's why new shooters (should) spend most of their time shooting groups on a blank card.

And that's exactly what they don't want ! You need to get them interested in shooting at targets first then introduce the training elements once they have been shooting a short while and want to improve. If they have no desire to get better they will walk out of the range, never to return.

Rob.

[LukeP]

And that's exactly what they don't want ! You need to get them interested in shooting at targets first then introduce the training elements once they have been shooting a short while and want to improve. If they have no desire to get better they will walk out of the range, never to return.
Rob.

Zen approach:
Let them make theyr own mistake, then pull them on the right way.

[Richard H]

The main thing is to make it fun for new shooters, let them shoot and enjoy it. When they show an interest in progressing and/or competing then introduce different training concepts to them. I myself have witness people going into way too much detail with new shooters, this usually just turns them off. You have to remember that there are many reasons for people to shoot, believe it or not some just do it to relax and enjoy themselves.

For new shooters (first time just trying it out) my main goal is safety and getting them to hit the paper. If THEY want more we go from there.

[2650 Plus]

I must say again that the disseration by Steve Swartz on a process to introduce a new person to our sport is by far the most comprehensive and perfect approach I seen in many years of trying to do exactly that. I wish I had said that. Steve has a good handle on training and its to our advantage to pay close attention to the concept he is describing. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[bryan]

need to hook new shooters first, then show them more as required.

As for shooting blank targets, the reason for doing it are varied, but not purely for the sake of doing it!

Also- the shooter should be developing a good sense for when his/her own mind sees the proper conditions. A coach can't see what the shooter sees (even with an FTVS system).

steve, when you get better you may get a better coach, hopefully you will get good enough for a coach that can do these things to take the time to help you.
till that time I guess in your mind this coach does not exist.

lets hope it doesnt take to long for you to realise there is a lot you dont know yet.

[Ed Hall]

The problem with praising a perfect ten (either you yourself or someone else) is that particularly for newer shooters, the accidental ten (misaligned to left, jerk trigger right) shouldn't really be reinforced.

I suppose it depends on what your final goal is. If your goal is to learn how to perform rote tasks by programming the subconscious to follow a conscious built shot plan, then I agree with you.

If, on the other hand, your goal is to learn how to let your subconscious produce results for you, then I disagree.

If your goal is to learn how to fire the maximum number of tens, I think praising the tens will bring you success. If you tell your subconscious that you are unhappy with tens because you didn't like the way they appeared, you probably won't realize as many.

Who's to say that the misalignment of the sights wasn't done by the subconscious to compensate for a misapplied trigger that it recognized? Or even, vice versa?

Indeed, I think we should praise the realization of the results we seek, but we should also really understand what it is we ultimately want.

I think all the little technicalities will only take you so far, and might be great for someone starting out, but just as we have to let go of reading each letter, word, phrase, sentence to move to the "big picture," I think we must also let go of certain stepping stones on our shooting trail to reach higher levels.

If you can't let go of a particular rung on your ladder, how will you reach higher rungs?

Remember, I believe the best results come from making shooting tens a natural action. To achieve that, you must understand there is a subconscious interaction with the physical world and allow it to take place, instead of using the subconscious only as a playback mechanism for a consciously constructed program.

Pile it on. I have high shoulders...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

[AAlex]

Bill and Ed provide valid points for results-based reinforcements, while Steve also gives good reasons for execution-based reinforcement. Both have positive and negative traits:

In the results-based reinforcement we have lower signal-to-noise ratio due to inherent randomness, but I don't think that is a real problem, because in my experience shooting tens accidentally with obviously bad execution is a rare enough occurrence. The positive side of this approach is that it is statistically unbiased, and is guaranteed to result in increased performance.

Execution-based approach is "cleaner" but biased, because our idea of model shot may not necessarily be optimal. For example, in the quest for perfect sight alignment the shooter may dismiss less important auxiliary details that indirectly facilitate proper execution, or even worse have bad trigger execution technique left to the subconscious to deal with. On the contrary, just by trying to go for higher score every time in a very uncerebral way, the shooter will eventually sort out the right from wrong (subconsciously or otherwise)


In my opinion, results-based reinforcement is a way to go in general, and the "behaviors" analysis to be used to address identifiable flaws in technique.


That last statement is the staple of my approach - identifying errors and looking for ways to improve - purely on physical and technical level, with no consideration to subconscious and/or mental aspects - I'll deal with those when I get to high 580's : )

[BPBrinson]

steve, when you get better you may get a better coach, hopefully you will get good enough for a coach that can do these things to take the time to help you.
till that time I guess in your mind this coach does not exist.

lets hope it doesnt take to long for you to realise there is a lot you dont know yet.

As a neighbor and friend of Steve, I have had enough of the bashing and uninformed sniping of a good shooter and humble man of whom I have great respect. He has always had time for our juniors and the people on this forum. He IS a great coach, and has the experience to "back it up".
This artical is pre arm injury, so know who you are talking to.

http://www.coba.unt.edu/news/view.php?/ ... -world-cup

Brooks

[bryan]

BP, sorry if you are thinking I am bashing and snipping steve.
I am no academic, so I am lacking in expressing myself tactfully.
I think steve is fine. If steve took it personally I hope he lets me know.

90% or more of his content is o/k, and new shooters should follow it as close as possible, but at the higher end is where things go in different paths.
Ed put it in much better words than I could hope to.

hope steves arm heals quickly.

[Steve Swartz]

Ed:

"Cognitive Dissonance" time (or, more plainly, "WTF,O?" time!). One of those times when I read a response to something I posted and find either/both:

- I misspoke in some sense and got misinterpretated; and/or
- I have a reading comprehension issue with the response to what (I thought) I said

In this case, probably a little of both . . . cut/pasted from you post with my comments indicated by >>

**********************************************
Steve Swartz wrote:
The problem with praising a perfect ten (either you yourself or someone else) is that particularly for newer shooters, the accidental ten (misaligned to left, jerk trigger right) shouldn't really be reinforced.


I suppose it depends on what your final goal is. If your goal is to learn how to perform rote tasks by programming the subconscious to follow a conscious built shot plan, then I agree with you.

>> Not sure that's what I said or meant. After thinking about it for a while, I can see how someone could think that was what I am saying. Let me clear it up: I'm not saying that at all. (more on "what Steve *meant* to say" momentarily)

If, on the other hand, your goal is to learn how to let your subconscious produce results for you, then I disagree.

>> I agree with your disagreeing with the first statement

If your goal is to learn how to fire the maximum number of tens, I think praising the tens will bring you success. If you tell your subconscious that you are unhappy with tens because you didn't like the way they appeared, you probably won't realize as many.

>> I'm pretty sure I didn't say that you should criticize accidental tens (I don't believe in negative reinforcement). I think I said we should *not reinforce* the accidental tens; in other words, ignore them as we would any other poorly executed shot. Ed, this ties back to the reason why shooting against blank cards is so important- it focuses on developing excellence on a "small skill" that can than be taken into the "large skill" of developing a shot in a match. It appears as though you you are saying we should never practice "small skills?" I'm pretty sure you aren't saying that- but it seems as though (logically) your criticism is that by focusing on the "small skills" you are "rpogramming too narrowly" and/or "non-holistically" which is bad?

Who's to say that the misalignment of the sights wasn't done by the subconscious to compensate for a misapplied trigger that it recognized? Or even, vice versa?

>> See above. Yes, "holistically" we are programming our "large skills" to be able to compensate for mistakes. I am proposing that we should spend some time on training to not make the mistakes in the first place ("small skills"). Not to the *exclusion* of the "large skills" of course; I do after all say we need to live fire against a distraction bull ("match training") where all of the "small skill" elements are brought together holistically (there's that snooty word again sorry) into the "large skill" of actually shooting.

Indeed, I think we should praise the realization of the results we seek, but we should also really understand what it is we ultimately want.

>> This is I think the actual core of our disagreement. I think we both agree that what we want is to shoot more tens. I see a path that, by focusing on reducing errors in the "small skills" we can achieve those results more efficiently. You seems to be disagreeing with this; perhaps I misunderstand but it appears as though you are advocating a "large skills" (shooting at bulls) only style of training. Where the student shoots a large number of shots and focuses not on executing properly the inidividual elements ("small skills") and instead focuses on hwere hte hole ended up in the paper. If that is indeed your position (and not a straw man) then I would think that that would be a very inefficient way to achieve high performance.

I think all the little technicalities will only take you so far, and might be great for someone starting out, but just as we have to let go of reading each letter, word, phrase, sentence to move to the "big picture," I think we must also let go of certain stepping stones on our shooting trail to reach higher levels.

>> I thnk that excellence on the "small skills" primarily, with the "large skills" integrated to reinforce hte proper execution of the small skills, will get you to where you need to go faster. I agree that this "behavioral focus" (small skills) is probably *more important* for the beginning shooter; as these behaviors will become more and more automatic (out of sight, out of mind) over the years.

>>HOWEVER

>>Even Tiger Woods will every few years dedicate all of his focus on "disassembling" his "large skills" into "small skills" and re-analyizing/evaluating/training specifically ont hese small behavioral elements.

If you can't let go of a particular rung on your ladder, how will you reach higher rungs?

>>Sometimes the best way is to move to a different ladder. If you never refocus on the small skills, you will stagnate. This is concpetually what has been called "Doing the right things" vs. "Doing things right." You need both. If you have developed a particular element of your technique that is not helping improve your performnace, you need to identify it, change it, and improve it- and burn it in so it becomes the new "good habit" instead of thne old "bad habit."

Remember, I believe the best results come from making shooting tens a natural action. To achieve that, you must understand there is a subconscious interaction with the physical world and allow it to take place, instead of using the subconscious only as a playback mechanism for a consciously constructed program.

>>We agree here.

Pile it on. I have high shoulders...

>>I feel your pain. Welcome back by the way. If the only thing my confusing BS does is to draw you out into the conversation every once in a while, it is worth the effort . . . =8^) !

***************************************************

[bryan]

None are as deaf as those who refuse to listen.

[Guest]

I think the Schwartz BS limit has just about run its course, when are you gonna learn he's an empty suit. That's OK keep listening and posting, the longer your off the range the better.

[Steve Swartz]

Another couple of substantive posts addressing real issues . . . .

"High-Larious!"

(or as they say in the newsgroups: "ROTFLMAO!")