kneeling recoil problem

guidolastra · Post by **guidolastra** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:19 am

Hi all,
I have been working a lot on my kneeling position, as it used to be excessively challenging. My scores have improved, but are not optimal. I still have the 2 most common problems in it, right-to left movement, and up and to the right recoil. After lots of training the movement has decreased, and my scores have improved. However, I've tried almost everything to improve the recoil, I have balanced my body to the left side, relaxed the lower body, etc... (have followed to some extent M. Eckhardt's "The ways of the rifle"). I finally decided to take some pictures of myself in position, with an without the rifle. I think my shoulder looks forced back and to the right, and I do not know if this could be part of the reason for this recoil problem ... I do not have a lot of room to shorten the stock, so I am thinking the handstop might be too far forward, making the whole stock too long and forcing the shoulder out of position.
Any analysis of the images and help will be welcome.

glg

Albert B · Post by **Albert B** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:59 am

OK, here are my 2 eurocents worh:
Giving comments from looking at pictures only is a bit dangerous, but it seems to me there are several things not optimal.
The position is somewhat to much upright - this forces all the bodyweight to the rear with to much weight on the right foot. The poit of balance is high up instead of lowered as much as possible. Try lo lower the position by leaning somewhat more foreward, putting the left elbow just over the knee. This lowers the point of balance and brings it more between the 3 support points. The left lower arm seems to much vertcal - the more vertical the more the arm wants to swing hrizonatal (left/right).
The rear of the stock seems to long. This pushes the shoulder to the rear. The buttplate supports the shoulder only on the leftside edge - this causes the upper body to turn to the right and also the rifle to swing to the right during the shot. (like a ball diverting to the side when it bounces of a wall hitting it at an angle). Try to shorten the buttlength a bit putting the shoulder less at an angle behind the rifle.
The left foot seems to much forward and to the left. This causes the buttocks to be pushed rearwards, causing the heel of the right foot to cant outwards - the position shifts up and to the left.. try to keep the lower left leg precisly vertical.

Good shooting,
Albert B.
(The Netherlands)

guidolastra · Post by **guidolastra** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:57 pm

We cannot exceed 2 MB in our postings, so I cannot send the new pictures!
Thanks a lot to all those who have taken the time to look at these pictures. I have placed my left elbow on top of the left knee (instead of having it back as before), and the position is more "forward" now. The rifle initially pointed too high, so I had to loosen the sling until the right height was achieved. Also, I have pulled back a little the hand rest, trying to make the length of the rifle shorter, so it does not push the right shoulder back. Still my left leg is a little too forward.
I think probably I will need to keep working initially in bringing the left leg to a more vertical position, and will shorten the stock ( I only have the last 0.5 cm left...).

Guido

BartP · Post by **BartP** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:12 am

How big a guy are you? I am 6'2" with long shins. It took a great deal of time for me to get my position to scrunch down if I wanted my left shin vertical. But it was essential.

I can see from your photos that there are any number of small changes you need to make. The position is irregular and awkward. Albert is dead-on with his analysis. You have no distance left on your rear stock, but if you are a big guy, the setting you have it at should be fine.

If you read the "ways...", you will read that it is not uncommon for new shooters to spread the right knee (and attached foot) out to the left foot to creat stability, and this is true. However, you should experiment bringing the foot and knee closer together. This will enable a more compact, lower position that has less tension. This takes time because at first you feel as though you are going to fall over. This will also allow you to shoot "out" from your position rather than "across" your position (if that makes any sense). Tricks: 1) Don't be afraid to significantly cant the rifle to the left (so you get a balance factor pulling AWAY from the falling-to-the-right feeling). Always set up your sling so that it MUST pull from the outside of your left arm. And wear whatever undergarments you can to reduce the sling pulse.

If you do all that, you should be off to a good start. I coach juniors with weird dimensions and growth spurts. It's the "trciks" that sometimes make ALL the difference. B

Bart

guidolastra · Post by **guidolastra** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:14 pm

Hi,
Thanks to all of you for your help... I am 5-9 tall. I have done what you all seem to agree on: my left shin is significantly more vertical, the left elbow has gone on top of the left knee, and the position is more forward balanced now. I shortened the stock the last 0.5 cm (no more room to go), and I am trying to reduce the angle of my right leg (this last is difficult as you said, I felt sometimes out of balance) ... And I had to lenghten the sling, as the rifle was now pointing toward the stars...
I have been training today under a lot of wind, without really wind flags. At the beggining the position felt a little unsteady, due mainly to the right knee being facing more towards the target. However, I must admit the recoil is much more vertical, and the groups look good. My series average is approx 93, better than before. I had a couple of 8s at the end to the 3 o'clok are, which concerned me, but could it be the wind? I wish I could send you a picture of how it looks like now, but the targettalk format only allows for 2 MB....
Guido

pwh · Post by **pwh** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:13 pm

Just go to www.irfanview.com
Its a free download and I use it quite frequently to resize pictures.
Comes in very handy for forum sites when the pictures are too large.

~Phil

Albert B · Post by **Albert B** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:42 am

Personally I do not recommend the sling to pull from the outside of the left arm, but to let it pull from the center of the left arm (looking at it from above). The sling works just like the boom of a hoisting crane: it must pull in the same plane as the boom, otherwise the whole boom topples to the left!!.
As to the length of the sling: the plane formed by the triangle wrist-elbow-shoulder should be perfectly vertcal (otherwise it is pulled to the left by the sling).
When your upper body has a tendency to fall to the right it can be caused by the kneeling roll beeing to thick. The point of balance moves high and to the right when the roll gets thicker (the pivot point is the right knee).
During a study I did several years ago with some better then average shooters, I found that the average thickness of the kneeling roll is: the length of the shooting boot devided by 3.2; from there you can adjust the thickness of the roll in small steps - reducing the thickness moving the point of balance lower and backwards, and vice versa.

Good luck,
Albert B
(The Netherlands)

guidolastra · Post by **guidolastra** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:36 am

I am noticing a lot of pulse transmitted apprently from the sling. I have it all the way up now, and still I get it. In the book ("ways") they recommend trying to get the sling to pull from the outside snd not from the inside. If you recommend having the sling pulling from the back, how do you get rid of the pulse?

guidolastra · Post by **guidolastra** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:20 am

photos of my "new" position. Still the hook too low may be? and the right knee too open?

glewis4252 · Post by **glewis4252** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:42 pm

I can't be sure from the side but it looks like you are shooting more " across" the position than " out" of the position. This puts very little body mass behind the rifle and makes consistent recoil very difficult with anything but an air rifle. Try rotating counter- clockwise with much less of an angle with your right leg and your left foot pointing more towards the target.

guidolastra · Post by **guidolastra** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:45 am

Hi all,
I am currently trying all the modifications you guys have suggested, in particular having the left leg horizontal, the right knee more directed towards the target and rising the hook.
I was in the USASNC last week, and I observed that most shooters place the handstop rather closer to the trigger guard (especially Mike Anti and Matt Emmons), and not too far forward. I tried this, and obtained a much vertical recoil. I think probably this change has the effect of not needing to reach too forward with the left arm, and thus the shoulders become a little more perpendicular to the fire line. In this manner, I think the upper body faces more the target and the shooting is more "out" of the position, and not so "across" and awkward looking. Again, I appreciate a lot all your help and this forum. It really helps people like me, who do not have a coach. Even worse, I am training alone. Here in mid-Missouri I am probably the only one shooting olympic rifle, people get surprised when they see me at the range with my shooting clothing!
All the best

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:23 pm

you could be putting the left side of your elbow on your knee, not the "pocket" behind your elbow. This will cause you to fall to the left, therefore using muscle to move the rifle back to the right causeing the sway and therefore causing the recoil to fall to the left when you fully relax. At first, when you try this, it may seem that you are about to fall forward, but if you practice it enough, it will get better.

guidolastra · Post by **guidolastra** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:57 pm

This is what it looks like after some (a lot) of changes. Still working on bringing the right knee more forward.... What do you think? (the groups certainly look tighter, and only occasional flyers)

cmj · Post by **cmj** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:30 pm

Hi, from the picture can not tell, but you do need to make sure the sling does not touch the rifle other than the attach point. Looks like it "might" be on the trigger guard, that is not legal.

guidolastra · Post by **guidolastra** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:23 am

your point is well taken! Thank you

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