Can't afford another Morini CM 84E right now- although that would be ideal.
Currently carry my Hammerli 208 around as my backup Free Pistol; also somewhat less than ideal (sights are too narrow; trigger set for Standard Pistol; etc. Certainly accurate enough though at 50m to get the job done but ergonomics are a liability.)
What about a Thompson Center Contender/G2 set up with match barrel and custom wi-i-i-ide sights?
1. Trigger is single stage, creepy, and heavy
2. Grip angle isn't quite right but could be replaced
3. Accuracy at 50m?
Backup Free Pistol
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Steve,
Having owned a couple of T/C Contenders, here are my thoughts:
1) As long as you don't mind the single-stage trigger, it can be worked on NRA Hunter's Pistol shooters used to get some pretty amazing triggers.
2) They are as accurate as you would need.
3) IMHO the fatal flaws are the loooong lock time, and the lack of good balance for one-handed shooting.
Having owned a couple of T/C Contenders, here are my thoughts:
1) As long as you don't mind the single-stage trigger, it can be worked on NRA Hunter's Pistol shooters used to get some pretty amazing triggers.
2) They are as accurate as you would need.
3) IMHO the fatal flaws are the loooong lock time, and the lack of good balance for one-handed shooting.
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
TOZ
I have shot a TOZ for over 35 years (same one) and the last match was sometime in the late '70s or early '80s.
Once had a 97 target the hard way... last shot by the world's greatest shooter took me about 10 minutes and attempts too numerous to count to shoot the last shot---- a 7!
The gun will shoot better than most people dream of and has been reliable.
Of course, sitting in the safe for the last 30 years may contribute to its reliability :-)
Tillman
Once had a 97 target the hard way... last shot by the world's greatest shooter took me about 10 minutes and attempts too numerous to count to shoot the last shot---- a 7!
The gun will shoot better than most people dream of and has been reliable.
Of course, sitting in the safe for the last 30 years may contribute to its reliability :-)
Tillman
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Thought about Toz of course.
Had one for two years.
1. What do they go for (new) nowadays?
2. Who makes "fat" front sights (I have a local guy who can grind out a fat rear sight)?
3. What are the odds that the sear engagement screw won't keep backing out (the proiblem I had wiht my first one; even Loc-Tite didn't help- I needed a very crisp break/no creep and the Toz design didn't really support that)?
I should've kept my old Toz after all but used it as a trade-in on my Morini.
Can I pick up a decent Toz for around $600 US?
Had one for two years.
1. What do they go for (new) nowadays?
2. Who makes "fat" front sights (I have a local guy who can grind out a fat rear sight)?
3. What are the odds that the sear engagement screw won't keep backing out (the proiblem I had wiht my first one; even Loc-Tite didn't help- I needed a very crisp break/no creep and the Toz design didn't really support that)?
I should've kept my old Toz after all but used it as a trade-in on my Morini.
Can I pick up a decent Toz for around $600 US?
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Steve - the TOZ trigger is about the only one in the business that can be adjusted to approximate the feel of the Morini trigger. Not a perfect match, but a close approximation.
Sights are a matter of personal taste - like you I prefer fat ones (might have something to do with my own waistline modifications??). TOZ front sights aren't that hard to make - get one, weld it up then machine it down on a mill so it's true and square. Same for rear sights, although for some slight extra $$ it is possible to modify the rear sight to take a Pardini adjustable rear sight. I have an adapter that allows this to happen - very slick, but I haven't yet invested in a spare Pardini rear sight. Instead will likely mount a Morini rear sight and just be done with it as the mounting is likely to be much easier.
Unless you already have a tricked out Thompson Contender then you'll be money in pocket to stick with a good used free pistol. Keep your eyes open and you'll be amazed at what comes out of the woodwork.
Of course there's always the old standby... Spend a few hundred on spare parts for the Morini. I have a spare of everything, including the barrel. Most parts on the Morini can be changed in a very few minutes. Frankly, not much breaks on these guns so I haven't had to use any spare parts yet to fix a gun that's broken during a match. Of course the three "biggies" when it comes to spares are an electronics board, a trigger assembly and a spare complete breech block assembly (with firing pin and spring). With these three assemblies in hand you're ready for about 99% of all potential failures, and they can all be changed in the field in less than 10 minutes.
And on a more personal note, I'm back to using the Hammerli 150 as my primary FP and the Morini is my backup. It's strange how our preferences change over time... ;-)
Sights are a matter of personal taste - like you I prefer fat ones (might have something to do with my own waistline modifications??). TOZ front sights aren't that hard to make - get one, weld it up then machine it down on a mill so it's true and square. Same for rear sights, although for some slight extra $$ it is possible to modify the rear sight to take a Pardini adjustable rear sight. I have an adapter that allows this to happen - very slick, but I haven't yet invested in a spare Pardini rear sight. Instead will likely mount a Morini rear sight and just be done with it as the mounting is likely to be much easier.
Unless you already have a tricked out Thompson Contender then you'll be money in pocket to stick with a good used free pistol. Keep your eyes open and you'll be amazed at what comes out of the woodwork.
Of course there's always the old standby... Spend a few hundred on spare parts for the Morini. I have a spare of everything, including the barrel. Most parts on the Morini can be changed in a very few minutes. Frankly, not much breaks on these guns so I haven't had to use any spare parts yet to fix a gun that's broken during a match. Of course the three "biggies" when it comes to spares are an electronics board, a trigger assembly and a spare complete breech block assembly (with firing pin and spring). With these three assemblies in hand you're ready for about 99% of all potential failures, and they can all be changed in the field in less than 10 minutes.
And on a more personal note, I'm back to using the Hammerli 150 as my primary FP and the Morini is my backup. It's strange how our preferences change over time... ;-)
Steve,
Just to add to the thought about a Thompson Contender. This was the first gun I ever bought. Still have and use it. Not for Free Pistol though. You would have to do some very serious tricking out to make it a free pistol worthy of what you are use to.
There is a TOZ-35 for sale for $695 in the For Sale section. Does this have your name on it?
Just to add to the thought about a Thompson Contender. This was the first gun I ever bought. Still have and use it. Not for Free Pistol though. You would have to do some very serious tricking out to make it a free pistol worthy of what you are use to.
There is a TOZ-35 for sale for $695 in the For Sale section. Does this have your name on it?
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Thanks Ted- but between a Toz and my Hammerli 208, I'd be better off with the hammerli.
Shoot, I'd rather trick out my Ruger Mark II!
Had a Toz for a couple of years . . . let's just say we didn't get along. Witht eh Toz i would only be starting out at $700 . . . after you add all the work that would be needed, I might as well buy another Morini . . .
Thanks for the advice though. Yes, I do understand a lot of people are quite satisfied with the Toz. Yes, yes, I understand that more Toz's were made than any other free pistol etc. etc. but no thanks.
Now if I could have an AMU-rebuilt Toz for $700 that would begin to make sense. But as a "project gun" there are (again, just for me personally- all you Tozmanian Devils notwithstanding) better options.
Sorry about "Pissing on the Pope" as it were.
Shoot, I'd rather trick out my Ruger Mark II!
Had a Toz for a couple of years . . . let's just say we didn't get along. Witht eh Toz i would only be starting out at $700 . . . after you add all the work that would be needed, I might as well buy another Morini . . .
Thanks for the advice though. Yes, I do understand a lot of people are quite satisfied with the Toz. Yes, yes, I understand that more Toz's were made than any other free pistol etc. etc. but no thanks.
Now if I could have an AMU-rebuilt Toz for $700 that would begin to make sense. But as a "project gun" there are (again, just for me personally- all you Tozmanian Devils notwithstanding) better options.
Sorry about "Pissing on the Pope" as it were.
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Fred
Mark,Mark Briggs wrote: TOZ front sights aren't that hard to make - get one, weld it up then machine it down on a mill so it's true and square. Same for rear sights, although for some slight extra $$ it is possible to modify the rear sight to take a Pardini adjustable rear sight. I have an adapter that allows this to happen - very slick, but I haven't yet invested in a spare Pardini rear sight.
I emailed back and forth with the person who makes the adapters, and ended up passing on it due to total cost. However, when I finally got a Pardini rear sight (adjustable) blade, I saw that it actually doesn't need an adapter. It will simply mount on the TOZ rear sight blade carrier as is. The only problem is that you then may need a taller front sight. If you can make a front as you described, you can forget about the adapter. And if you use a low sub-six hold, you might not even need the taller front. Try it - it's on my TOZ right now and works great!
HTH,
FredB
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Mark, Ted:
After sober reflection (and some more web searches) I think you are both correct. I believe my options really narrow down to
- Spares kit (Mark- what would your list be in order of "probable failure")
- Customize a used TOZ
I'm thinking with a spare electronics board and some springs I might be in good shape.
I do admit the most common failure mode for hte 84E involves failure to change the batteries . . . after that failure mode, the probabilities drop off to zero very rapidly . . .
Thanks!
After sober reflection (and some more web searches) I think you are both correct. I believe my options really narrow down to
- Spares kit (Mark- what would your list be in order of "probable failure")
- Customize a used TOZ
I'm thinking with a spare electronics board and some springs I might be in good shape.
I do admit the most common failure mode for hte 84E involves failure to change the batteries . . . after that failure mode, the probabilities drop off to zero very rapidly . . .
Thanks!
General concept about ANY backup pistol
I understand the potential need for a backup pistol. Whilst the best option is to do whatever it takes to ensure your primary gun is going to be ready, failures do occur.
My last trip to the nationals, about two years ago, my Pardini failed in the first shot of the AP match. Worked fine the day before in official training! But I refilled the cylinders for the first time in a long time to maximum pressure and apparently that caused a regulator failure. I was able to correct the problem and used the Pardini both days.
I would offer that the most important consideration in a backup pistol is how familiar you are with shooting that pistol. Unless you use the pistol frequently enough, the value may be very slight!
Consider that you have a Morini 84e Free pistol. Should you buy a TOZ as a back up? How much will you train with the TOZ? You might be better off with something else that you shoot regularly as the back up. I might back up my Morini with a Pardini SP because I use the Pardini SP regularly in Bullseye and STD pistol competition. I train with the Pardini SP. The same might also be true for someone that has a 208, if they use the 208 on a regular basis.
It also follows that if you don’t use the 208 or Pardini SP regularly enough to just pick it up and be comfortable with it, it is not a good back up choice either!
Bottom line I would put forth is that for a backup gun to be effective in any event is that you use it enough to be confident you will perform well with it.
My last trip to the nationals, about two years ago, my Pardini failed in the first shot of the AP match. Worked fine the day before in official training! But I refilled the cylinders for the first time in a long time to maximum pressure and apparently that caused a regulator failure. I was able to correct the problem and used the Pardini both days.
I would offer that the most important consideration in a backup pistol is how familiar you are with shooting that pistol. Unless you use the pistol frequently enough, the value may be very slight!
Consider that you have a Morini 84e Free pistol. Should you buy a TOZ as a back up? How much will you train with the TOZ? You might be better off with something else that you shoot regularly as the back up. I might back up my Morini with a Pardini SP because I use the Pardini SP regularly in Bullseye and STD pistol competition. I train with the Pardini SP. The same might also be true for someone that has a 208, if they use the 208 on a regular basis.
It also follows that if you don’t use the 208 or Pardini SP regularly enough to just pick it up and be comfortable with it, it is not a good back up choice either!
Bottom line I would put forth is that for a backup gun to be effective in any event is that you use it enough to be confident you will perform well with it.
Re: General concept about ANY backup pistol
The value is that after spending $1000-$3000 to travel to an event at least you get to shoot. I've borrowed pistols and shot some of my best groups with borrowed guns that I have never shot before. There are numerous rifle shooters that have medaled with borrowed rifles.PETE S wrote:
I would offer that the most important consideration in a backup pistol is how familiar you are with shooting that pistol. Unless you use the pistol frequently enough, the value may be very slight!
Bottom line I would put forth is that for a backup gun to be effective in any event is that you use it enough to be confident you will perform well with it.
The best solution is to have the exact same pistol as your main pistol, following that would be to have a gun that you train with so you are familiar with it, following that the next best is to just have any gun that you can shoot the match with. The worst solution is to not have any back-up gun, or spare parts (with the tools and knowledge to use them).
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Guest
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Hi Steve,
You asked...
- Spares kit (Mark- what would your list be in order of "probable failure")
I'll try to do an ordered list, from most to least probable failure.
1) Battery - always carry 2 in your spares kit as I've seen one "brand new" battery removed from the blister pack, only to be found to be dead as a doorknob!
2) Complete breech block assembly (breech block, firing pin, mainspring, plus the drift pin which attaches the breechblock to the frame). Have never seen one of these fail, but if you should break a firing pin through misuse this is the part that will take the longest to fix on the firing line, so best be prepared with a completely assembled unit, already test-fitted and test-fired in your gun, ready to go at a moment's notice. Note that the breech block and cocking lever are a matched pair (to a certain extent). If you get a spare breech block that is made to entirely different tolerances
3) Trigger spring (have seen two of these fail on others pistols, mostly, I believe, through less than gentle handling)
4) Electronics board.
5) Trigger group.
If the extractor fails it's likely not something you're going to change on the firing line. And I don't think you're likely to see it fail since it's quite robust. Its return spring is really a miserable little devil to work with (even harder to find on the floor - don't ask how I know this), but if the return spring breaks you can still shoot the pistol with a little adaptation in technique.
There's always something that can break in a pistol, even a simple one like a free pistol. And there's always the chance that your backup gun takes more of a beating in shipment than your primary gun, so when you arrive at the match it's the backup gun that's no good. (Saw a grip pretty much broken off a "backup gun".) Sometimes having spare parts is a better solution than a spare gun, and is often far easier to transport than a complete pistol.
Hope this info helps, Steve.
You asked...
- Spares kit (Mark- what would your list be in order of "probable failure")
I'll try to do an ordered list, from most to least probable failure.
1) Battery - always carry 2 in your spares kit as I've seen one "brand new" battery removed from the blister pack, only to be found to be dead as a doorknob!
2) Complete breech block assembly (breech block, firing pin, mainspring, plus the drift pin which attaches the breechblock to the frame). Have never seen one of these fail, but if you should break a firing pin through misuse this is the part that will take the longest to fix on the firing line, so best be prepared with a completely assembled unit, already test-fitted and test-fired in your gun, ready to go at a moment's notice. Note that the breech block and cocking lever are a matched pair (to a certain extent). If you get a spare breech block that is made to entirely different tolerances
3) Trigger spring (have seen two of these fail on others pistols, mostly, I believe, through less than gentle handling)
4) Electronics board.
5) Trigger group.
If the extractor fails it's likely not something you're going to change on the firing line. And I don't think you're likely to see it fail since it's quite robust. Its return spring is really a miserable little devil to work with (even harder to find on the floor - don't ask how I know this), but if the return spring breaks you can still shoot the pistol with a little adaptation in technique.
There's always something that can break in a pistol, even a simple one like a free pistol. And there's always the chance that your backup gun takes more of a beating in shipment than your primary gun, so when you arrive at the match it's the backup gun that's no good. (Saw a grip pretty much broken off a "backup gun".) Sometimes having spare parts is a better solution than a spare gun, and is often far easier to transport than a complete pistol.
Hope this info helps, Steve.
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Sorry, it seems some of my text disappeared...
"Note that the breech block and cocking lever are a matched pair (to a certain extent). If you get a spare breech block that is made to entirely different tolerances..."
Should have continued on to say that it may be necessary to carry the breech block and cocking lever as a matched set. Changing the cocking lever takes only an additional few seconds.
I had to change my first breech block as a result of a crack across its face, and fortunately found the replacement supplied by Morini (fantastic warranty service, by the way) fit very well in my pistol without modification to the cocking lever. Subsequently I purchased a spare breech block and found that it required only the very slightest grinding of the cocking lever to make fit. I've stuck with the same cocking lever over three different breech blocks.
One small additional note... Changing breech blocks is made much easier if you also carry a small square of wood about 1 1/4" cubed. In the centre of the wooden block drill a hole slightly larger in diameter than the drift pins, and don't let it pass all the way through the wooden block. This block will now serve as your "drifting tool". Lay the pistol frame on the block, drift the pin downward into the hole in the block, and voila, you may now remove the internal components. Since the hole drilled in the wooden block didn't go all the way through, your drift pin has now been captured in the block, rather than rolling away across the floor.
"Note that the breech block and cocking lever are a matched pair (to a certain extent). If you get a spare breech block that is made to entirely different tolerances..."
Should have continued on to say that it may be necessary to carry the breech block and cocking lever as a matched set. Changing the cocking lever takes only an additional few seconds.
I had to change my first breech block as a result of a crack across its face, and fortunately found the replacement supplied by Morini (fantastic warranty service, by the way) fit very well in my pistol without modification to the cocking lever. Subsequently I purchased a spare breech block and found that it required only the very slightest grinding of the cocking lever to make fit. I've stuck with the same cocking lever over three different breech blocks.
One small additional note... Changing breech blocks is made much easier if you also carry a small square of wood about 1 1/4" cubed. In the centre of the wooden block drill a hole slightly larger in diameter than the drift pins, and don't let it pass all the way through the wooden block. This block will now serve as your "drifting tool". Lay the pistol frame on the block, drift the pin downward into the hole in the block, and voila, you may now remove the internal components. Since the hole drilled in the wooden block didn't go all the way through, your drift pin has now been captured in the block, rather than rolling away across the floor.
CM84e Spares
I would add to the list by Mark :
(a) the grub screws and screws that can get lost on range when changing front sight blades, barrel shroud, rear sight adjustments and the screws / pins used for assembly/strip-down.
(b) the printed copy of a detailed CM84E strip-down and assembly notes prepared by Mark Briggs plus a printed diagram / notes from Morini noting part numbers (also referred in the excellent document by Mark).
(c) grip - these break!
In my view, the spares are more important and realistic than a second gun. As Mark highlighted, Morini warrantee is excellent in scope and turn-around. Excess baggage and training familiarity are two important reasons to keep the primary pistol working. If you are at a major competition, transferring your grip onto a trade stand gun is a sensible option. However, as with our rifle shooting friends, a very careful recording of the set-up of the gun is essential. We can do a lot to help ourselves - width of sight blades, rear sight for various lighting conditions, trigger spring used, trigger weight etc. Like your shooting glasses, you have a copy of your prescription with you?
If Breech Block is too costly or for some could provide licensing issues as this is a pressure part in some countries (for those who require a license!) a spare firing pin is a good investment but please note the above essential information sheets to be printed out and spare springs/screws to go with the inner components of the breech block.
(a) the grub screws and screws that can get lost on range when changing front sight blades, barrel shroud, rear sight adjustments and the screws / pins used for assembly/strip-down.
(b) the printed copy of a detailed CM84E strip-down and assembly notes prepared by Mark Briggs plus a printed diagram / notes from Morini noting part numbers (also referred in the excellent document by Mark).
(c) grip - these break!
In my view, the spares are more important and realistic than a second gun. As Mark highlighted, Morini warrantee is excellent in scope and turn-around. Excess baggage and training familiarity are two important reasons to keep the primary pistol working. If you are at a major competition, transferring your grip onto a trade stand gun is a sensible option. However, as with our rifle shooting friends, a very careful recording of the set-up of the gun is essential. We can do a lot to help ourselves - width of sight blades, rear sight for various lighting conditions, trigger spring used, trigger weight etc. Like your shooting glasses, you have a copy of your prescription with you?
If Breech Block is too costly or for some could provide licensing issues as this is a pressure part in some countries (for those who require a license!) a spare firing pin is a good investment but please note the above essential information sheets to be printed out and spare springs/screws to go with the inner components of the breech block.