Sub-six hold using 9 ring or 7 ring for aim

[frank]

I am very new to air pistol shooting.

Where do you aim for sub-six hold?

I have two 10m targets. One made by Gamo, it has a white bulleye 9/10 ring. Another one, "official" target?, has a complete back 7/8/9/10 rings.

I find it easy to aim sub-six below the 9 ring with the Gamo white 9/10 target. I got lost in the completely dark 7/8/9/10 targets. When I use sub-six hold with this target aiming sub-six at below 7 ring, I find the "intuitive" shooting too much guessing work with such a big gap.

Any recommendation? Should I simply stick with the Gamo target?

What is the correct sub-six hold aim? Below 9 ring or below 7 ring?

[bryan]

hi, also new to ap, on official target, sub 6, (normally recommended), is in the white below the black area.
6 hold is just touching the black.
centre hold, bit more obvious.

I like a more defined aiming area, but focus is on the sight alignment, this is most important, the fuzzy target not so important.
still doesnt sound right to me, but seems to work o/k

regards

[jackh]

[David Levene]

The centre of my aiming area is probably 2-3 rings lower than Jack shows in his picture. I suppose you would call mine a "deep sub-six" hold.

[Spencer]

The centre of my aiming area is probably 2-3 rings lower than Jack shows in his picture. I suppose you would call mine a "deep sub-six" hold.

I'm with David - the human condition gives us the ability to locate the centre of 'things', and the centre of the white below the bull is about the 3 ring (or lower depending on the overall size of the target).

Spencer

[bryan]

I like jacks picture, any closer and the blade starts bleeding into the black.

my gap is a lot less than that between the front/rear sights.
I have also noticed my hold is not that steady compared to top shooters.
maybe why if I open up the gaps my groups go with it.

I dont seem to hold it steady enough to start squeezing till it goes off technique, be alot accidental 8's.
with wider gaps I dont have the definition to even call the shots.

I take up lots of the weight, hold, then release without much thought when it looks all ligned up. If I do it right, its in the 10 somewhere. pretty bad, still a 9. outside the 9 is one I should of put down, started again.
I should get better in time.

[deadeyedick]

the human condition gives us the ability to locate the centre of 'things', and the centre of the white below the bull is about the 3 ring (or lower depending on the overall size of the target).

Absolutely correct Spencer.

[Guest]

So sub-six aim on the regular target is below 7 ring.

I must be using the unofficial target, with white center bull 9/10 ring.

My assumed sub-six hold below 9 ring is not what most people would consider "sub-six" aim then.

Thanks.

Do I need to change to those regular target or keep using those Gamo white bulleye center target?

[RobStubbs]

So sub-six aim on the regular target is below 7 ring.

I must be using the unofficial target, with white center bull 9/10 ring.

My assumed sub-six hold below 9 ring is not what most people would consider "sub-six" aim then.

Thanks.

Do I need to change to those regular target or keep using those Gamo white bulleye center target?

Sub six is below 6 (that's what 'sub-6' means), below 7 would be 'sub-7'

You should switch to the proper 'all black 10-7' targets that are official ones used in international competitions - assuming you plan shooting those types of competition.

Rob.

Rob.

[AAlex]

I thought 'sub-6' was derived from "6 o'clock"?

[Fred Mannis]

I am very new to air pistol shooting.

When I use sub-six hold with this target aiming sub-six at below 7 ring, I find the "intuitive" shooting too much guessing work with such a big gap.

Frank,
This is not 'intuitive' shooting.
First of all, you need to establish a comfortable rear sight gap width. Recommended gaps range from 1:1:1 to 1:3:1 (the gap shown in Jack's picture). Younger shooters (better eyes) tend to prefer narrow gaps, older shooters tend to prefer larger gaps.

Then establish a comfortable hold point. Some use a gap between the bottom of the bull and the top of the front sight close to the gap between the front and rear sight (see Jack's picture). Some hold in the middle of the white i.e. halfway between the bottom of the target and the bottom of the bull (David Levene's deep sub 6).

Once you decide on what hold you plan to use (and this may take several weeks of experimentations), don't try to 'refine' it as you settle. It is not an aiming point. Concentrate/focus only on the front sight and its alignment with the rear until the pistol fires.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[David Levene]

Do I need to change to those regular target or keep using those Gamo white bulleye center target?

The best thing you can do with those targets is turn them round and shoot at the back of them.

As a new AP shooter you will probably think that sounds crazy, but it's great practice for keeping the sights aligned with each other and not disturbing that alignment when you release the trigger. These things are much more important than where you aim on the target.

[Fred Mannis]

I agree with David. Best use for the Gamo targets is to shoot at their blank back side. Two-three blank targets for every bull target you shoot.

[SteveT]

Sub-6 means lower than a 6 o'clock hold. Midway between the bottom of the bull and the bottom of the target card is about right, assuming a single bull 10M air pistol target. HOWEVER, if you are aiming for a specific location on the target you are negating one of the two benefits of the sub-6 hold.

The 6 o'clock hold is good for a world class shooter with a hold like a vice, years of experience and confidence in his/her shot process. This shooter has a very small wobble area and knows that even though the bull is bobbing around, a clean trigger pull will produce a good shot.

For the other 99% of us, especially beginners and shooters with wobble areas near the size of the black or bigger it is very difficult to execute a smooth uninterrupted trigger pull with the bull bouncing all over the place. Most of us do not have the confidence or mental toughness to pull the trigger when the sight picture doesn't look like the pictures in books. And it NEVER looks like the books because it is always moving around.

Moving down well into the white, concentrating on the sight alignment (front to rear sights) and ignoring the bullseye is the best solution for shooting open sights. If you are anywhere near the center of the white space, you will be in the black and usually in the 9 ring or better as long as the sights are aligned with each other.

Best regards,
Steve Turner

[Guest]

I tried to do the sub-six hold aiming at ~ 3 ring. But my shots just refuse to go up.

I am using Baikal 46m, I seems to have exhausted all my clicking elevation. I can do a sub-six airm at ~ 6 ring, but I can not get any lower. Seems to have exhausted all my clicks.

3 clicks/ ring. I dialed 10 clicks. The aim is still at 6 ring, not at 3 ring. What might be the problem? I hear the clicks, but I am not sure the elevation is exhausted or not. At what point do I exhaust elevation and have to re-center for elevation?

[Fred Mannis]

I tried to do the sub-six hold aiming at ~ 3 ring. But my shots just refuse to go up.

I am using Baikal 46m, I seems to have exhausted all my clicking elevation. I can do a sub-six airm at ~ 6 ring, but I can not get any lower. Seems to have exhausted all my clicks.

3 clicks/ ring. I dialed 10 clicks. The aim is still at 6 ring, not at 3 ring. What might be the problem? I hear the clicks, but I am not sure the elevation is exhausted or not. At what point do I exhaust elevation and have to re-center for elevation?

3 clicks/ring doesn't sound right. A ring is 8 mm wide and most AP sights are about 1.5 mm/click, so you need about 8*3/1.5=16 clicks to get to the 3/4 ring area (assuming you were zeroed for a 6 o'clock hold). If you have run out of rear sight elevation, you can always reduce the height of the front sight. You know you have run out of elevation adjustment when the adjusting screw is no longer able to turn.

[Steve Swartz]

Great thread all- great picture Jack (except as Pete notes the amount of white on three sides can be quite a bit larger than your picture); I follow Don Nygord's advice and use

- Post width equal to target width
- Equal white on three sides
- White equl to about 1/3 post width

So my picture vs. Jack's picture is similar except the sights are "Supersized" on mine which makes the wobbling look a lot more relaxed (at least to me).

But the most important thing is to shoot thousands of shots (2,000 dry fire; 1,000 live fire generally a good rule of thumb- in batches of 20/10) against a blank paper until your technique solidifies.

Don't make it any harder on yourself (and guarantee the development of Very Bad Habits) by shooting against the Evil Distraction Bull!

[RobStubbs]

I thought 'sub-6' was derived from "6 o'clock"?

How can that make any sense - 6-O'clock is a line from 10 off the card straight down ?

Sub 6 refers to below the 6-ring.

Rob.

[David Levene]

I thought 'sub-6' was derived from "6 o'clock"?

How can that make any sense - 6-O'clock is a line from 10 off the card straight down ?

Sorry Rob but I've always understood "sub 6" to be "below the 6 o'clock position on the black. In the same way, a "6 o'clock" hold is tight up against the bottom of the black.

[Guest]

Thank you all folks for your utmost information.

I used my new sub-six vs. my previous "sub-9 Gamo" aim.

In one day, without any practice, my 10 shot average went from 8.5 to 8.9

This greatly encouraged me that 10m pistol is all technique and information.

More precise, correct information you have, that much better off you will be.

Thank you all folks.