qualified coaches

[2650 Plus]

The parameters I am searching for include: A coach that knows how to shoot at or near the national records. A coach that teaches in positive terms. A coach that can teach the techniques necessary to perform at the national record level. This would be Bryan Zins for one. [ Maybe the only one] The coach for international match success:Same as above for parameters. I have not met him yet but my best guess is Russ. There seems to be many pretenders to the crown that post on TT, but very few that meet the first requirment. Information from the lesser gurus should IMHO should be examined carefully , tested in training and sumarily rejected if results are less than the proponents gaurentees. Much of the advice on the board is at least worth the .02 cents as advertised . Good Shooting Bill Horton

[David Levene]

A coach that knows how to shoot at or near the national records. A coach that teaches in positive terms. A coach that can teach the techniques necessary to perform at the national record level.

I note that you have dropped your requirement (from another thread) that he should be able to out-shoot you. It does seem a shame though that you have not also specified a coach who can help you to compete at your next level (up to internationally).

Good luck in your quest, it's a great experience when you do find a coach who meets your requirements. I know, I did.

[jackh]

Something I never see in these coach measuring threads is 'coaching to what end?'. Coaches experienced and able to take the already very qualified (and coached) shooter to the Olympic level are rare and rather different than the coach to help the beginner and average skilled shooter to a higher level. Olympic level coaching is a narrow field topic that seems to be applied over the wide mass of average shooters in these threads. Apples and oranges. So what level are you guys talking about all the time?

[2650 Plus]

David, the day I first broke 2650 the new national record was set by Herschel Anderson at 2680 and it still stands at 2680 to this day.Thats why I set the standard at the national record. I am not sure Herschel is coaching, but if he is he would also be included with Bryan Zins. I only shot on the national team one time and shot a score that I would not like to take credit for. [533] With free pistol. That is also why I do not recomend any thing I cannot do myself however my top free pistol score was 559.The Garus seem not to be interrested in establishing their credentials for some unknown reason. How about you starting the ball rolling? What qualifies you to be a critic? Good Shooting Bill Horton

[bryan]

Well my thoughts are very few people on TT are ready for this coach you are searching for.
most just need basic coaching.
unfortunately, they also want it for free.

My criteria for a coach is basically the same as yours.
it doesnt take to long to weed out the text book coaches. not to mention the ones that should start by first reading a text book.

but as for someone that has only reached near national records, is probably no better coach than you, and you would not be happy.
A coach for international success, will most times have had international success.

one other point is you are already well versed in the art of shooting. the time it would take to undo what you have learnt, to then start to relearn a couple of areas would be time consuming, you probably wouldnt do it as it wouldnt make sense to you at first.
the only people you would possibly listen to, wouldnt have the time to retrain you.

If your practice results are better than your comp results, you need a suitable coach. any coach that says comp results are normally ex amount below training results has read to many text books.

my free thoughts on the subject.

[Chris]

The need for a coach has a lot to do on the individual. People can certainly shoot at a very high level with out the need for a coach. If a person can shoot high master or master scores this person has a good solid concept of the basics and knows how to apply them. The rest is a mental game. How do you shoot a 10, 60 times in a row? Are you willing to accept a bad shot? Why? Can one figure this out with/without a coach? Is there a mentality out there that a person can not become a national/olympic champion without a coach. There are a lot of books out there and lots of people who like to help provide their $0.02. Not sure if I would have reached the level I have faster if TT had been around when I was a struggling rifle shooter and then the switch to pistol.

[David Levene]

The Garus seem not to be interrested in establishing their credentials for some unknown reason. How about you starting the ball rolling? What qualifies you to be a critic?

When I was competing internationally I only shot ISSF Standard and CentreFire Pistol. I won the British Championship in both on several occassions and, at various stages, held the British Record in both (578 Standard and 585 CF on the 1989 targets). I retired from international shooting in 1994 having had shooter's elbow for 3 years.

Despite medalling in many (what I class as) minor internationals, my best result at a major international was in CF at the 1985 European Championships where I finished 4th with 590 (old rapid targets). The 3 medallists all shot 591 and needed a 3 way tie shoot.

Using your criteria, does this qualify me to be a critic? Probably.

Does this qualify me to be a coach? Certainly not.

[Guest]

The parameters I am searching for include: A coach that knows how to shoot at or near the national records.

Isn't the point the point rather to find a coach who can help you to shoot better? Teaching and doing are very different.

[Kevin6Q]

I agree with the guest. Just because an athlete can do something does not mean they are able to teach it or your personalities will mesh. If you don't like the coach you will not be able to gain all there is to offer. In order for the coaching to work you have to have almost blind trust in them. Sure you can question them but you must believe in what they are telling you. If the only coach acceptable is a record holder the chance of not getting better is pretty high. Championship teams are filled with talented individuals but it is the chemistry between the team mates and coaches that produce winners. You and the coach are a team. If an athlete gets to the national level they are technically very good. It's the mental side of the game that wins championships. One aspect of a fantastic coach is having the ability to make the athlete believe in themselves and their ability to win. Any change to the technique will produce lower scores until you relearn what to do. If you do not believe the coach has made this change to help you improve you won't improve. A few minor tweaks to your form will not make you a champion. It's the tweaks to your head that will and these are much more difficult to present and absorb.

When you get right down to it the athlete determines the outcome not the coach.

[David Levene]

One aspect of a fantastic coach is having the ability to make the athlete believe in themselves and their ability to win.

Your post is full of great points, I just thought that this one deserves repeating.

[alb]

The parameters I am searching for include: A coach that knows how to shoot at or near the national records. A coach that teaches in positive terms. A coach that can teach the techniques necessary to perform at the national record level.

Bill,

Everything that you wrote up to this point makes perfect sense, but then you wrote:

This would be Bryan Zins for one.

I get the impression that you mean that the coach himself has to be able to shoot near national record levels. I would suggest that shooting near national record levels is not only a matter of having the knowlege to do so, but also having the physical attributes to do so as well as the dedication to put in the practice time necessary to do so. Tiger Woods' swing coach, for example, doesn't measure up to this standard, yet he has won every coaching honor that there is in the world of golf, and his number one client continues to dominate the pro tour.

You need someone who has the knowlege, the ability to diagnose, and the ability to communicate effectively -- a rare combination. Being able to shoot near national record levels is certainly a shortcut to determining whether or not someone has the knowlege to to coach effectively, but the coach's own performance in competition is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for being an effective coach.

Regards,

Al B.

[2650 Plus]

David , the performance you reached is indeed impressive. If I could not find a coach with near identical shooting background, I would be most interested in talking about shooting with you as opposed to doing the same with an inferior coach. You might do it accidentally but I believe I could learn more from you than from anyone that had never been there or done that. The comment you lifted from the other poster was one I wish I had made. Col Bill Pullem was one of those. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[alb]

Well my thoughts are very few people on TT are ready for this coach you are searching for.
most just need basic coaching.
unfortunately, they also want it for free.

Personally, Bryan, I'd rather pay for it, i.e., have someone spend the time to actually watch me shoot, and diagnose what I need to work on to improve. Finding someone with the ability and the willingness to do this, however, has been difficult.

The coach that I've used in the past is competing in matches both days of every weekend between now and the national championships at Camp Perry later this summer (to Bill's point, he is a 2650+ shooter and has set a number of records).

I saw him last weekend for the first time in many months (we were competing in a 2700 match together). Since my progress has been at a plateau since about last January, I asked him to come out and give me a lesson. He apologized and told me about his schedule. Then he took one look at one of my targets and told me that I was 'heeling' the gun slightly, and proceeded to explain exactly what 'heeling' is. Nothing that I have ever read about pistol shooting has ever provided an adequate description of what this is.

So I've changed my grip, and already my shooting seems to be improving. Hopefully, I won't have to wait 4 or 5 months the next time I need some coaching, but the fact is, my money just isn't green enough to buy the help that I need.

Regards,

Al B.

[alb]

One aspect of a fantastic coach is having the ability to make the athlete believe in themselves and their ability to win.

When you get right down to it the athlete determines the outcome not the coach.

Kevin, I'm not sure that confidence is something that is 'coachable'. You develop confidence in your ability to win by winning.

A friend of mine once told me that you have to learn to compete at every level. I believe this means that you have to develop confidence in your ability to compete at each level by first experiencing success at each level.

You're right though, "it's the athelte that determines the outcome, not the coach."

Regards,

Al B.

[jackh]

Again I say 'coaching to what end?'. In my area there are Zero people I would call a pistol coach. There are several well experienced Bullseye shooters that do not coach beyond help and hints. There are Zero International matches in my area. So for those of us that read the various forums and sometimes see the top shooters at a 2700 match there is only ourselves to really sort out the way to shoot. Here is a small exchange I had with Brian Zins about this:

[q]The great posts recently that dived into the mind set for shooting leave me to think that there is no one correct technique to shoot, either physical or mental technique. You listen to many dialogues on how to, and make your own combined versions that work for you. One caveat I can see is thinking too much, trying to tell the subconscious what to "do" rather than what you "want". After a certain skill level, I believe the shooting must become more of a flow of moves rather than steps at a time. Jack H


Jack, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT - BRIAN[/q]

So you see, dialogues are the only "coaching" available to some of us. We are not all alike. So read and try out the dialogues, don't take them too literally, and decide for yourself. If you ever run into a Doc Young, Steve Swartz, 2650+, .....watch them, talk to them, add them to your dialogues....

Jack H

[Steve Swartz]

"The parameters I am searching for include: A coach that knows how to shoot at or near the national records."

Good point- you do understand, however, that "knows how to shoot at . . . " and "currently shoots at" or even "used to shoot at" are not the wsame thing, right? Many references to great coaches who were not great athletes ahve been given to you; you refuse to acknowledge any of those examples. Ignoring a fact does not negate the fact.


"A coach that teaches in positive terms."

Wholeheartedly agree as always.


"A coach that can teach the techniques necessary to perform at the national record level."

See first cmment. Again, being able to "do" and being able to "teach" are not directly related. Doing ability is neither a Necessary NOR Suficient condition for for teaching ability.

I honeslty don't know why this statement of simple fact seems to irritate some people so much. Then again, "I'm not that kind of doctor!"

Maybe it's not the simple statement of fact so much as it is that it happens to come from me. But that would be a somewhat self-centered explanation . . .


"This would be Bryan Zins for one. [ Maybe the only one]"

Bryan is a great competitor and all around great guy. I have learned quite a few useful things in discussions with him. His explanations of key technique elements are straightforward and helpful!


"The coach for international match success:Same as above for parameters. I have not met him yet but my best guess is Russ."

Russ has some very dedicated and enthusiastic supporters. His record of success and experiences as an athlete is top-notch. The "Russian System" has an enviable record of success in dominating the shooting sports over many years.


"There seems to be many pretenders to the crown that post on TT, but very few that meet the first requirment."

No comment.


"Information from the lesser gurus should IMHO should be examined carefully , tested in training and sumarily rejected if results are less than the proponents gaurentees. Much of the advice on the board is at least worth the .02 cents as advertised."

Agree 100%. Many coaches and students of the sport are actively engaged in seeking deeper understanding of the discipline. They each have valuable learnings and insights. I have always maintained that great value in improving one's understanding can be found from practitioners at all levels.

Indeed- one of the strongest reasons for teaching and coaching is to improve one's own understanding. I have learned many great lessons from those with whom I have been working to improve their performance.

Recently I had a discussion with a brand new junior shooter on the primacy of sight alignment and trigger control, and the inability of many shooters to accept their (immutable) amount of wobble. This of course results in focusing on sight picture (instead of alignment), chicken finger, looking at target, etc.- a problem that the junior will be struggling with (as do we all) for years to come. The simple questions asked by this (admittedly precocious) 13 year old as he described what *he* saw and how *he* interpreted and responded to it were enlightening.


Oh, and since this is The Evil One speaking here, of course I have to say something Horrible and Insulting and Insensitive:

Frankly, one of the reasons for the existence of Target Talk is to serve as a venue for collaborative learning. We learn together in this forum.

If one truly believe that one can only learn from a very specific person, then I suggest the student seek that person out and learn away. One-way communication channels work just fine to serve that need.*

If, on the other hand, you believe we all have something to share as we learn together, then this is the place for you!

Steve


* Of course there are actually some on-line pay-for training courses that work just that way. And some great on-line resources (the Canadian SHooting SPorts Federation, Ed Hall's notes, Ten P files, the AMU manual on-line, etc.) are actually free. Once I get my s*it together I plan on posting an on-line "independent study" course on pistol shooting (free of charge).

[bryan]

sorry al.b
just steriotyping to much re, willing to pay for advice.
some are not interested in being payed anyway, just happy to help.

at elite level, the work is done long before the comp day. the outcome is largely already written. to suggest the athlete determines the outcome is wrong.
A swing coach is exactly that, a technical coach.
If you require a coach to help you win, you need a coach that has won.
you cant get from a book what it is like to win, to loose, to stand on the start line at an olympic games, the pressure you can put upon yourself to succeed.
the words are not there to use.
this is where experience is more important than nearly anything else.
you cant get that from a book. even if steve writes it.

an elete coach I had watched me shoot and had a go at me for watching the wrong thing. they even know what you are thinking before you do.

yes elite coaches are thin on the ground.

I still think the level of coach is still lost on many. I have never played soccer, yet after a weekend course i would have the knowledge to teach 6 yr olds.
I would be comfortable working with an elite athlete on many aspects, but dont even ask me how to kick a ball.
the process to kick a penalty goal at world series is not much different to shooting a ten at the same level.
but if you want to learn to kick the ball, then you need a technical coach.

up to say 570ap, you need a mostly technical coach.
much past this and your coaching requirements change.

[2650 Plus]

This is just my personel opinion. I am of the opinion that Bryan Not only knows what he talks about but that he has walked the walk. Several days ago he posted a shot sequence for another shooter that was having some problems. I felt the advice was as perfect as a coach could get to the correct advice for one in the shooters position. It must be easier for a world class shooter to transition from rifle to pistol than I ever thought possible. I have no doubt that he can be breaking into the 2600 club by the end of the season [ Prior to Camp Perry ] if he decides to give that his best shot. As it is ,the middle range of ap& fp boys need to keep a close eye on him in the coming matches. Good Shooting Bryan!!!Bill Horton

[David Levene]

If you require a coach to help you win, you need a coach that has won.

It will probably come as no surprise that I totally disagree with that statement. You need a coach who recognises what you need to help you win.

No two people are the same. All that you really know about a shooter who has "been there" is that he/she was able to filter/disregard/apply the advice received to enable him to perform at a high level. It says absolutely nothing about his ability to recognise what is needed by others.

I am of course talking about what is sometimes described as "elite level" shooting.

At lower levels the emphasis is much more on the ability, suitability and comitment of the shooter. A competant but mediocre coach should easily be able to help a dedicated shooter to reach a reasonable level, for example 565-570 in AP60. The step up to the 580-585 level, unless the shooter is fantastically talented, requires a different class of coaching support.

[RobStubbs]

I agree with David, in that a great coach does not have to have been a winner. In many ways they don't even need to have been a high level competitor. A coach 'merely' needs to want his athletes to win and know how to get them there.

Rob.