I have been qunadering lately about possibly buying a home trainer but have several questions. First off, are they really worth it? I suppose this answer would depend on the shooter and how much they are into it, but generally for a hardworking rifle/pistol shooter who is seeking to one day belong to the national team, etc are they necessary/useful?
Secondly, what would be the best choice for a machine? I want something good but don't want to spend an arm and a leg. Rika? Scatt? From what I have heard those look like good options without spending too too much.
Lasltly, what are some of the features of the home trainers? I understand they mark your aim sequence in different stages (follow through, before shooting, etc). Do you tell you any information about your position such as cant, etc?
Thank you,
Jordan
Couple Questions about Home trainers
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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Ed Hall
I have a Rika and have limited (and old) experience with a Noptel and very basic Beamhit. So, use that info to evaluate mine...
The Noptel is superior in use and high in cost, but allows for live firing up through some pretty good calibers. It can also offer "computer constructed" suggestions for improvement.
The Rika and Scatt offer the ability to live fire only with Air guns, as far as I can tell. I tried my Rika with .22 and it wasn't at all usable.
Both have the software available to review without purchasing anything, so that would be your best choice for studying the capabilities. The Rika has a cant sensor built in and displays a plus sign with degrees on the screen. However, the software does NOT provide the correct feedback for the effects of cant. In fact, it's backwards to real shooting. Where a Counter-ClockWise (from shooter) cant would print the bullet hole to the left and down as it increased, the Rika moves the hit to the right and up. (If you are interested in the effects of cant, I have an article available elsewhere on the web called A Detailed Study of Cant Effects.
One of the points I like to tell people is that the Rika improved my dry fire, by teaching me to better "see" what was happening myself. IOW, I was able to better perform my dry fire without the Rika after using it for awhile. At that point, the only real advantage was in the aggregation and archiving of data.
A second point is that I occasionally found a trait I wanted to improve, but could find no information on how. In that respect it is better to have a coach available who can read the Rika information and provide assistance. The Rika is able to export files for review elsewhere. The Scatt is, too, as far as I know.
I have also developed what I call a "trigger training" setup I use with the Rika and placed it on the web at Trigger Training with the Rika.
I would suggest http://www.scatt.com/ to find the Scatt software and our host http://www.pilkguns.com/hometrainer.shtml to find the Rika software and a couple good articles on using it.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
The Noptel is superior in use and high in cost, but allows for live firing up through some pretty good calibers. It can also offer "computer constructed" suggestions for improvement.
The Rika and Scatt offer the ability to live fire only with Air guns, as far as I can tell. I tried my Rika with .22 and it wasn't at all usable.
Both have the software available to review without purchasing anything, so that would be your best choice for studying the capabilities. The Rika has a cant sensor built in and displays a plus sign with degrees on the screen. However, the software does NOT provide the correct feedback for the effects of cant. In fact, it's backwards to real shooting. Where a Counter-ClockWise (from shooter) cant would print the bullet hole to the left and down as it increased, the Rika moves the hit to the right and up. (If you are interested in the effects of cant, I have an article available elsewhere on the web called A Detailed Study of Cant Effects.
One of the points I like to tell people is that the Rika improved my dry fire, by teaching me to better "see" what was happening myself. IOW, I was able to better perform my dry fire without the Rika after using it for awhile. At that point, the only real advantage was in the aggregation and archiving of data.
A second point is that I occasionally found a trait I wanted to improve, but could find no information on how. In that respect it is better to have a coach available who can read the Rika information and provide assistance. The Rika is able to export files for review elsewhere. The Scatt is, too, as far as I know.
I have also developed what I call a "trigger training" setup I use with the Rika and placed it on the web at Trigger Training with the Rika.
I would suggest http://www.scatt.com/ to find the Scatt software and our host http://www.pilkguns.com/hometrainer.shtml to find the Rika software and a couple good articles on using it.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
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Ed Hall
Hi Jordan,
You're quite welcome. I'm surprised you didn't get any responses from some Scatt owners yet. I did fail to mention that the Rika also has two optional items: a trigger pressure sensor and (supposedly) a heart rate sensor. I don't have either (have never seen the heart rate monitor), but have played some with the trigger sensor, which didn't seem to be too useful with two-stage triggers. If you are considering those items, you might want to get a bit more information from some owners first.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
You're quite welcome. I'm surprised you didn't get any responses from some Scatt owners yet. I did fail to mention that the Rika also has two optional items: a trigger pressure sensor and (supposedly) a heart rate sensor. I don't have either (have never seen the heart rate monitor), but have played some with the trigger sensor, which didn't seem to be too useful with two-stage triggers. If you are considering those items, you might want to get a bit more information from some owners first.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
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Telecomtodd
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:15 pm
- Location: Saint Charles, MO
Jordan - we recently bought a Anschutz Noptel system for my son's 1913. It's pretty incredible. There are times where my son is better off using the Noptel than shooting ammo, believe it or not. In fact, we're out of good ammo (only have off-the-shelf CCI left and it's terrible), so we will go to the range anyways and dry-fire with the Noptel.
There are things we can see with the Noptel that coaching can't show - for example, I saw that his breathing was too labored, and he was then holding too long for the shot. With the Noptel, I could see how the breathing effect was affecting his scoring capability - after nearly hyperventilating (OK, it wasn't that bad), he was unable to hold the gun on target although he thought he was doing fine. His sight was affected, and the muzzle was all over the target. When he breathes smoother and then holds, he can keep the muzzle in a very narrow window and his scores get much better. I was able to SEE all of this with the Noptel - I could see where he was pointing in real time, and then could re-create the shot on the screen with a continuous colored line. it's very obvious when you are all over the target and when you are zoned in and scoring well. I'm waiting to be able to see his heart beat, but with his shooting jacket, etc. it may not be possible.
When starting a round of shots, you do a "sighter" where you can adjust the unit. You can see a small dot on the screen where the muzzle is pointing, and you hear a tone as to where it is pointed relative to the X-ring. The highest tone should result in a 10.
My only gripe about the system is that it's very much a 2-person set up unless you're really good and haven't bumped the sensor since the last time you shot. His gripe is that he wants the screen out of sight since it distracts him. Back to the concept of a two-man shooter/spotter team.
My son's shooting is improving rapidly, shooting 96s out of 100 pretty consistently. From what I have seen from your shooting, you should be shooting 98-100 and improve even more.
We got a good price on the Anschutz model, and it even came with an air rifle adapter. Good luck!
There are things we can see with the Noptel that coaching can't show - for example, I saw that his breathing was too labored, and he was then holding too long for the shot. With the Noptel, I could see how the breathing effect was affecting his scoring capability - after nearly hyperventilating (OK, it wasn't that bad), he was unable to hold the gun on target although he thought he was doing fine. His sight was affected, and the muzzle was all over the target. When he breathes smoother and then holds, he can keep the muzzle in a very narrow window and his scores get much better. I was able to SEE all of this with the Noptel - I could see where he was pointing in real time, and then could re-create the shot on the screen with a continuous colored line. it's very obvious when you are all over the target and when you are zoned in and scoring well. I'm waiting to be able to see his heart beat, but with his shooting jacket, etc. it may not be possible.
When starting a round of shots, you do a "sighter" where you can adjust the unit. You can see a small dot on the screen where the muzzle is pointing, and you hear a tone as to where it is pointed relative to the X-ring. The highest tone should result in a 10.
My only gripe about the system is that it's very much a 2-person set up unless you're really good and haven't bumped the sensor since the last time you shot. His gripe is that he wants the screen out of sight since it distracts him. Back to the concept of a two-man shooter/spotter team.
My son's shooting is improving rapidly, shooting 96s out of 100 pretty consistently. From what I have seen from your shooting, you should be shooting 98-100 and improve even more.
We got a good price on the Anschutz model, and it even came with an air rifle adapter. Good luck!
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solomon grundy
Why?
Steve,
Why do you say the Scatt would not work on a 1911?
even if it doesn't attach by wrapping the band around the slide, there are barrel inserts that can be inserted that the band can attach to.
And I can assure everyone that a Scatt WILL work with an AR-15. We even have targets for American HP.
Marcus
Why do you say the Scatt would not work on a 1911?
even if it doesn't attach by wrapping the band around the slide, there are barrel inserts that can be inserted that the band can attach to.
And I can assure everyone that a Scatt WILL work with an AR-15. We even have targets for American HP.
Marcus
Perhaps Steve was thinking about live firing. Only the Noptel will work for live firing those arms. I use my Rika with 1911s, but I have to remember not to cycle the slide while I'm using it.
For the Mac OSX, even with a Windows emulator or shell, you might still not be able to access the ports. I still haven't been able to get my Rika running under Linux. The software runs, but doesn't find the controller.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
For the Mac OSX, even with a Windows emulator or shell, you might still not be able to access the ports. I still haven't been able to get my Rika running under Linux. The software runs, but doesn't find the controller.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
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Steve Swartz
Thought the question was about live fire, sorry.
Anything that makes a "click" loud enough for the transponders to hear will work on the Rika (not sure about Scatt) as long as you can attach the sensor unit somewhere on the object facing in the direct of the sending unit.
A stick, for example, works great if you snap a rubber band against the transponder (don't ask me how I know).
Steve Swartz
Anything that makes a "click" loud enough for the transponders to hear will work on the Rika (not sure about Scatt) as long as you can attach the sensor unit somewhere on the object facing in the direct of the sending unit.
A stick, for example, works great if you snap a rubber band against the transponder (don't ask me how I know).
Steve Swartz
Steve have you been practicing with the pointy stick again like in Monty Python?Steve Swartz wrote:Thought the question was about live fire, sorry.
Anything that makes a "click" loud enough for the transponders to hear will work on the Rika (not sure about Scatt) as long as you can attach the sensor unit somewhere on the object facing in the direct of the sending unit.
A stick, for example, works great if you snap a rubber band against the transponder (don't ask me how I know).
Steve Swartz
How to defend yourself when being attacked by a man armed with fresh fruit. Can't we try a pointy stick?
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David Levene
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Steve Swartz
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solomon grundy