Just wondering, I have tend to define Hold as the ability of the arm to "hold" the sight picture stable on the target/bullseye. Sight alignment as keeping the front sight aligned in the rear sight.
It seems many on this list are concerned about training to improve hold. Is that different than training to improve sight alignment.
Recently I have noticed that I seem to loose some sight alignment as my mind is allowing the trigger finger to move. I am not alway sure what my hold is doing at that time. But I do perceive something with the sights changeing.
What say ye?
Hold versus Sight alignment
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Steve Swartz
Pete:
Semantics can be important. One way that might be useful to approach this issue is by describing/defining what's going on in terms of cause-effect in the system.
The definitions that I have found particularly useful tend to break down the issue by what it is we are supposed to do.
Settle: how much variation you see in the "tracking system" (shoulder)
Alignment: how much variation you see in the "pointing system" (wrist)
Settle + Alignment = Hold
Hold: how much variation you see in the direction of the centerline of the muzzle "painting" the target
So - what we are trying to accomplish- is improvement in "hold" or where the line of the barrel intersects the target. To do this, we must first work on "Settle" (minimizing the movement of the gun in space) and "Align" (controlling the orientation of the gun in space).
This is the "blocking and tackling" (batting practice?) part. We also then need to train with "integrative drills" where we take the simple fundamentals (stability in where the gun is in space, and stability in the orientation of the gun in space) and put them together to achieve the desired behavior- "Hold" (what we see with our eyes; the combination of settle and align).
So now that we are "holding" we need to know how to release the shot . . .
"As a matter of fact, yes, I *am* writing a book!"
Steve
Semantics can be important. One way that might be useful to approach this issue is by describing/defining what's going on in terms of cause-effect in the system.
The definitions that I have found particularly useful tend to break down the issue by what it is we are supposed to do.
Settle: how much variation you see in the "tracking system" (shoulder)
Alignment: how much variation you see in the "pointing system" (wrist)
Settle + Alignment = Hold
Hold: how much variation you see in the direction of the centerline of the muzzle "painting" the target
So - what we are trying to accomplish- is improvement in "hold" or where the line of the barrel intersects the target. To do this, we must first work on "Settle" (minimizing the movement of the gun in space) and "Align" (controlling the orientation of the gun in space).
This is the "blocking and tackling" (batting practice?) part. We also then need to train with "integrative drills" where we take the simple fundamentals (stability in where the gun is in space, and stability in the orientation of the gun in space) and put them together to achieve the desired behavior- "Hold" (what we see with our eyes; the combination of settle and align).
So now that we are "holding" we need to know how to release the shot . . .
"As a matter of fact, yes, I *am* writing a book!"
Steve
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CR10XGuest
Pete:
Probably the most, and possibly the only interesting question I've read here recently. Sorry about not posting on the Bullseye topice, but been working a lot recently (just taking a break now).
I think you have hit upon one of the major issues that shooters have trouble understanding. Working on sight alignment versus sight picture (which seems to commonly termed "hold").
The short answer is that they are 2 different things and I don't think shooters spend enough time working on each one separately. I do have training time on hold, which is working on decreasing the apparent wobble, recognition of amount, conscious control, strength and endurance. The consciouc control is just getting the muscles used to moving in a more controlled manner, like making sprials that are smaller and smaller to a single hold point. Sometimes with trigger press and sometimes without (but without trigger press I do not use a target, ask Zins why if you don't already know)
The other is sight alignment training time. That is physically keeping the sights aligned without worrying or trying to control the hold or wobble area. These are mostly trigger press, to see what the process does to the sights and using a target.
So, the short answer is yes they are the same, but like the peanut butter and chocolate in a candy bar, they have to be together when you finally perform.
Probably the most, and possibly the only interesting question I've read here recently. Sorry about not posting on the Bullseye topice, but been working a lot recently (just taking a break now).
I think you have hit upon one of the major issues that shooters have trouble understanding. Working on sight alignment versus sight picture (which seems to commonly termed "hold").
The short answer is that they are 2 different things and I don't think shooters spend enough time working on each one separately. I do have training time on hold, which is working on decreasing the apparent wobble, recognition of amount, conscious control, strength and endurance. The consciouc control is just getting the muscles used to moving in a more controlled manner, like making sprials that are smaller and smaller to a single hold point. Sometimes with trigger press and sometimes without (but without trigger press I do not use a target, ask Zins why if you don't already know)
The other is sight alignment training time. That is physically keeping the sights aligned without worrying or trying to control the hold or wobble area. These are mostly trigger press, to see what the process does to the sights and using a target.
So, the short answer is yes they are the same, but like the peanut butter and chocolate in a candy bar, they have to be together when you finally perform.
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CR10XGuest
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Steve Swartz
Oh sorry Pete- got distracted there for a moment . . .
Assuming that any of the above made sense, we've argued in this forum over what your brain should be doing during the "moment of truth" (MoT) or last 200 ms before and 100 ms after the shot breaking.
Pull up just about anything with Ed Hall's name on it for some enlightenment; he may disagree but IMNSHO it goes like this:
- Conscious mind gots to be doing something; it should be concentrating on perfecting sight alignment
- Subconscious mind is best at determining when to initiate trigger release; you shouldn't be aware that this is happening at all.
- Trigger manipulation is a trained semiautonomic response- once you start it, it goes by itself "without any thinking."
Pete, interesting observations in your initial post. Will try to answer but of course my perception is colored by how I interpret what you describe.
Your description would suggest that your concentration is moving away from perfecting alignment to something else as you are manipulating the trigger. [I am assuming the alternative explanation- unbalanced forces/crooked trigger pull has already been ruled out]
I don't know what you are experiencing. But from your description (again) if I am interpreting it correctly, it would seem that you are being distracted/losing focus during the MoT?
I mean that sounds a lot like what I experience (recorded in my log book as "Distraction" or "Loss of Mental Focus").
So I would conclude that what you are experiencing is a "bad thing" and can/should be fixed by training to deepen and maintain your mental focus during the MoT.
I have some ideas for how to do this if that is what you think is going on.
Sorry for the off-track/incomplete musings about the first part of your question earlier (training to improve hold vs. training to improve sight alignment- yes, I think they are different; perhaps that's why I get into so many arguments over not having to worry about "hold!").
Steve
Assuming that any of the above made sense, we've argued in this forum over what your brain should be doing during the "moment of truth" (MoT) or last 200 ms before and 100 ms after the shot breaking.
Pull up just about anything with Ed Hall's name on it for some enlightenment; he may disagree but IMNSHO it goes like this:
- Conscious mind gots to be doing something; it should be concentrating on perfecting sight alignment
- Subconscious mind is best at determining when to initiate trigger release; you shouldn't be aware that this is happening at all.
- Trigger manipulation is a trained semiautonomic response- once you start it, it goes by itself "without any thinking."
Pete, interesting observations in your initial post. Will try to answer but of course my perception is colored by how I interpret what you describe.
Your description would suggest that your concentration is moving away from perfecting alignment to something else as you are manipulating the trigger. [I am assuming the alternative explanation- unbalanced forces/crooked trigger pull has already been ruled out]
I don't know what you are experiencing. But from your description (again) if I am interpreting it correctly, it would seem that you are being distracted/losing focus during the MoT?
I mean that sounds a lot like what I experience (recorded in my log book as "Distraction" or "Loss of Mental Focus").
So I would conclude that what you are experiencing is a "bad thing" and can/should be fixed by training to deepen and maintain your mental focus during the MoT.
I have some ideas for how to do this if that is what you think is going on.
Sorry for the off-track/incomplete musings about the first part of your question earlier (training to improve hold vs. training to improve sight alignment- yes, I think they are different; perhaps that's why I get into so many arguments over not having to worry about "hold!").
Steve
I will say that of the three big components:
1. Sight alignment
2. Sight picture (hold and "wobble")
3. Trigger control
That sight picture is the least important. Which is good, because it's also the one that is impossible to do perfectly.
Reduction of bad shots, or shots where something happens that you aren't expecting, is most heavily influenced by trigger control. Not disturbing the sights during the trigger break is absolutely crucial, primarily because it is the hardest thing to see when you do it wrong.
Maintaining sight alignment is the next biggie, and seems to be most adversely affected by distraction. If I don't constantly pay attention to the alignment, it can creep and ruin the shot. Or save the shot, if I was misaligned. The important bit is that it introduces uncertainty in the results.
Anecdote: When I was shooting around 87%, I would call my shot a 9, then discover an 8. Now that I'm shooting 92%, I call my shot an 8, and discover a 9. I've actually learned that the 9 ring is much larger on the perceived target than I previously thought it was, my alignment and trigger control were just so bad that my shots were falling half an inch outside where I thought my hold was.
When my hold wanders, I just chalk it up to needing more practice or making a bad choice on when to break the shot. However I do blame myself if I let the alignment shift or break the trigger with movement; these are things I can prevent.
H.
Edit: To more directly address the original post, here's what my mind does when I am shooting well:
1. Gun goes up, focus goes to front sight, brain thinks about sight alignment
2. Lower into area, concentrating on sight alignment
3. In area, concentrating on sight alignment, secondarily noticing when sights are in target area.
4. When the are, send semi-conscious signal to please start pulling trigger now, thanks. Main concentration on sight alignment.
5. Trigger is being pulled by subconscious, ALL ATTENTION ON SIGHT ALIGNMENT AND NOT LOSING ALIGNMENT DURING BREAK.
At this point, if the hold goes bad, tough luck. You can't fix it during the shot, only in practice. As far as training for sight alignment, you should have that perfected or nearly perfect before worrying about hold.
1. Sight alignment
2. Sight picture (hold and "wobble")
3. Trigger control
That sight picture is the least important. Which is good, because it's also the one that is impossible to do perfectly.
Reduction of bad shots, or shots where something happens that you aren't expecting, is most heavily influenced by trigger control. Not disturbing the sights during the trigger break is absolutely crucial, primarily because it is the hardest thing to see when you do it wrong.
Maintaining sight alignment is the next biggie, and seems to be most adversely affected by distraction. If I don't constantly pay attention to the alignment, it can creep and ruin the shot. Or save the shot, if I was misaligned. The important bit is that it introduces uncertainty in the results.
Anecdote: When I was shooting around 87%, I would call my shot a 9, then discover an 8. Now that I'm shooting 92%, I call my shot an 8, and discover a 9. I've actually learned that the 9 ring is much larger on the perceived target than I previously thought it was, my alignment and trigger control were just so bad that my shots were falling half an inch outside where I thought my hold was.
When my hold wanders, I just chalk it up to needing more practice or making a bad choice on when to break the shot. However I do blame myself if I let the alignment shift or break the trigger with movement; these are things I can prevent.
H.
Edit: To more directly address the original post, here's what my mind does when I am shooting well:
1. Gun goes up, focus goes to front sight, brain thinks about sight alignment
2. Lower into area, concentrating on sight alignment
3. In area, concentrating on sight alignment, secondarily noticing when sights are in target area.
4. When the are, send semi-conscious signal to please start pulling trigger now, thanks. Main concentration on sight alignment.
5. Trigger is being pulled by subconscious, ALL ATTENTION ON SIGHT ALIGNMENT AND NOT LOSING ALIGNMENT DURING BREAK.
At this point, if the hold goes bad, tough luck. You can't fix it during the shot, only in practice. As far as training for sight alignment, you should have that perfected or nearly perfect before worrying about hold.
I could not agree with Houngan more, it took me far too many years to really truely do this. If I take my visual concentration from alingment to picture as the shot breaks, I will loose alingment precision, spoiling the shot. When I realized I was doing this and started letting sight picture be in a visual awareness, not focus ( focus on alingment ) my shooting took a quantum leap.
Gort
Gort
As a followup:
Due to this thread, while shooting tonight I didn't check my shots, just called them in my head and kept shooting until I had 20 on paper. I also doubled my attentiveness to sight alignment.
Offhand I would say there were a solid six shots where my hold went streaking across the target during the trigger break, which I called bad eights and sevens, and on two occasions looked for the hole in the white. However, upon scoring, they were 4 nines and 2 eights, good eights at that. If someone had given me a solid beating a year ago when I started shooting AP and forced me to understand how important maintaining sight alignment is, I'd be way ahead of where I am now.
H.
Due to this thread, while shooting tonight I didn't check my shots, just called them in my head and kept shooting until I had 20 on paper. I also doubled my attentiveness to sight alignment.
Offhand I would say there were a solid six shots where my hold went streaking across the target during the trigger break, which I called bad eights and sevens, and on two occasions looked for the hole in the white. However, upon scoring, they were 4 nines and 2 eights, good eights at that. If someone had given me a solid beating a year ago when I started shooting AP and forced me to understand how important maintaining sight alignment is, I'd be way ahead of where I am now.
H.