Rapid Fire Turning Target Machines and Clubs

[azuaro]

Dear Forum Members:

I am building 2 Rapid Fire Turning Target Machines…

One will be used outside for shooting .22 and the second one is for indoor/air shooting. I found no commercial equipment of excellent quality and the only good machine I found was the GEHMANN (http://www.gehmann.net/pages/e-detail.p ... ail%20view) but unfortunately I did not find one for sale in the US.

I then decided to manufacture them with top quality materials: SS bearings, SS Ball Joints, all SS square tubing and rod construction, rotary pneumatic actuators, etc. A Target Controller System from Target Timers (very well made and an EXCELLENT product) will take care of the rest…

I have some questions and need some help from this Forum:

1. In which direction are the targets supposed to turn when opening? (opening = shoot)
Note: Please don’t answer that it doesn’t really matter!!…this is an Olympic discipline and there are very strict rules and one way of doing things.

2. Are the “Turning Targets” being replaced by the “Falling Targets” (air pistols only)? and if this is the case, what is going on with the scoring?
Note: I read that there are several “openings” for the Falling Targets System: 45, 40 mm and the “new” 30 mm.

3. Where in the US is this discipline shot at a good level of competition with good range equipment with either .22 or with air pistols? (I don’t want to be the only shooter)
Where I live there are practically no shooting ranges because the hunting is supposed to be the best there is in the US (Western Montana- Rockies). While this is understandable, I will like to do some serious club shooting when not hunting….In this area there are only “Sighting In” ranges up to whatever distance you want to shoot.

4. I also like to shoot with air pistols (I have a brand new FWB P-56), do anyone know about air rapid fire competition/shooting ranges or clubs in this area?
I live in Flathead Lake, MT. but I am willing to travel to Washington up to the Seattle area, Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming or south western Canada.

Thanking you for your time and courtesies in helping me with this matters, please receive my best regards.

AZUARO

[David Levene]

1. In which direction are the targets supposed to turn when opening? (opening = shoot)

2. Are the “Turning Targets” being replaced by the “Falling Targets” (air pistols only)? and if this is the case, what is going on with the scoring?

Looked at from above, the targets turn clockwise to the shooting position.

Turning targets are not being replaced by falling targets. In the air pistol event you are scored one point for each target that falls.

Are you building the targets in accordance with the ISSF Technical Rules 6.3.9 and 6.3.17

[azuaro]

Thank you so much for this information David, I had parts of these rules but nothing as complete and updated...

Yes, absolutely... the macjines have been measured with a caliper for maximum precision according to these measurements. I had the distances for ctc for the 25m targets and also for the 10m ones and knew that both needed to be at 1.40 Meters Heigth but these rules are what anyone will ever need...thanks again...

Now, I only need to find clubs or shooting ranges with tournaments-leagues for shooting and competing!!

Best Regards,

AZUARO

[Richard H]

You can get the updated rules from the ISSF website, just download them.

There's not a lot going on in Rapid Fire air, I think mainly for that if it becomes popular it will spell the end for the rapid fire discipline (sort of what happened with runniing target). We have two comps. that include both portions of the Rapid fire air the Canadian Air Gun Grand Prix and the Canadian Nationals.

[David Levene]

Remember that there isn't an ISSF Rapid Air match as such, not one on turning targets anyway.

The only matches for 5-shot air are the 10m Air Pistol Five Target event shot on falling plates and the 10m Air Pistol Standard Event (officially) shot on stationary targets.

In the UK we shoot the 10m Standard event on turning targets and also run a 10m version of Rapid Fire on turning targets.

You can download the Special Technical Rules for the 5 Shot Air Pistol events and the Special Technical Rules for the other pistol events (together with all of the other rules) from the ISSF site.

[Mike Taylor]

In addition to the air pistol events Richard mentioned, the Canadian National Pistol Championships in Calgary, Alberta will also include 25 m Rapid Fire (sometimes referred to as Olympic Rapid Fire). This is for cartridge guns (ie Standard pistols). I'm presuming this event will be fired on turning targets (has been in recent years, but this time it is a new venue).
25 m Rapid Fire on turning targets will also be held at the BC Provincial (ISSF pistol) Championships (end of May) at the Pacific Shooters Association range in North Vancouver, British Columbia.
Calgary is probably within your expressed range of travel. North Vancouver might be a bit of a stretch.
Mike T.

[mikeschroeder]

There's not a lot going on in Rapid Fire air, I think mainly for that if it becomes popular it will spell the end for the rapid fire discipline (sort of what happened with runniing target). .

Hi

I don't understand, you seem to be saying that if rapid fire becomes popular, it will kill the sport? That doesn't seem logical. I understand that logical things don't necessarily happen, but can you elaborate please?

Personally, I don't see rapid fire being popular mainly because of the cost of the target turning systems, which (memory) was roughly $20,000.

Thanks

Mike
Wichita KS

[Richard H]

It's not my idea but it is a feeling that is floating around, especially with a lot of Europeans. It does hold some water too, look at the history of the running target sports.

Running Deer -shot with Fulllbore>Running bore -shot with small bore> running target- shot with air> no running target sport left.


Really turning targets aren't needed, internationally it is shot on electronic targets that cant turn so it is shot with simple red lights and green light.

We have homemade Rapid fire turning tagets at our club and they are nowhere's near $20,000.

[Mike M.]

The fear is that if RF air picks up any steam, it will displace RF cartridge in the Olympics.

Now, as to the original question....

Rapid Fire is VERY rare in the United States. About the only places that shoot it regularly are the Olympic Training Center and the Army Marksmanship Unit at Fort Benning. And the Citadel, IIRC. Check the USA Shooting schedule.

But this should NOT stop you.

First, you can always get a group started. Three or four shooters can push each others to excel.

Second, the dearth of competitors means that you can make a real run at an Olympic berth. Yes, it can be lonely. I shoot the International muzzle-loading disciplines, practicing in the knowledge that the nearest other shooter is 100 miles away. Knowing that I'll get to shoot ONE record score per year.

But that one record score will be at the Zone or World Championships.

I dabbled in RF for several years. It's a calling. But if it calls to you, jump on it. You won't regret it.

[azuaro]

Thank you all for the valuable advice and logical answers...I will try to compete in whatever I can and in the meantime I will get lots of practice at home. Canada will definitely be in my agenda and I will look closer into the US alternatives.

I tried to start a club around here but the area is infected with "CHRONIC SMELLING MAGNUMITIS"... anything shot around here must make a big boom, smell like burned powder, take an elk or bear or moose at 700 yards, make a big hole and have lots of velocity and energy...I am the WEIRDO among my hunting friends (only one shooting Olympic pistols and rifles)

I am about to finish a top of the line turning target machine (with precise official dimensions), it will have the Top of the line TARGET TIMER from Canada which is a very good product with many other useful programs and voice controls.

I will spend close to $2,000.00 US total including timer, some machining and SS welding and doing everything myself. Please note that the machine is being constructed ALL with stainless materials including stainless steel bearings housed in aluminum enclosures (2 on each - actuator and turning targets), SS spherical and ball joint connectors and screws, SS 1/8 square tubing (4 x 2) and even PVC caps for the square SS tubing...

For looks I have not decided whether to keep it SS unpolished, to polish it, use a matte finish for no reflections (sand blast) or paint it...either alternative will not add much cost or time.

I used an adjustable rotating air actuator (adjustable from .2 to 2 sec per cycle and + or _ 10 degrees from the nominal cycle of 90 degrees). The actuator is controlled with a 4 way solenoid valve with a silencer on the exit port for total quietness while indoor shooting.

This machine will be very close to the Ghemann but constructed with better and heavier SS materials and the latest in technology...I even bought a dedicated small air compressor.

It should be ready by mid February (I am currently out of the country). If anyone is interested in pictures or details please let me know.

Thanking you all once again for your very valuable input, please receive my best regards.

AZUARO

[Richard H]

Sounds very similar to our set up, air actuator, compressor and also run by a Target Timer, ours is very heavy duty too. As ours is inside we didn't have to go to the added stainless steel expense. All work was done by club members with mostly donated components, the biggest expense was the Target Timer , then the compressor.

[Mike Taylor]

Azuaro,
I am definitely interested in details and pictures of your design.
My club, Kelowna Pistol Club, has the range facility for Rapid Fire but we lack the turning targets and are planning to add them. We do shoot on stationary targets but there is always controversy/disagreement about whether a shot was 'late'.
Mike T.

[rrpc]

I note with surprise that no-one is considering electronic targets instead of turning targets. I appreciate that the turning targets are cheaper to make, but when you add the cost of paper targets, the running costs get a lot higher.

Single targets start at about $4500 each, but that drops as you add more.

[Richard H]

Who has a complete electronic system that is $4500, with all the required part ie monitors, cables, consumables. for .22. Air systems are cheaper yes.

Thats $4500 for one position. As opposed to complete firing lines of turning targets that can be made for less than $1000. we have 12 positions, thats $54 000, you can buy a lot of paper for that. Electronic targets have lots of benefits, I'd love to have them, but from a cost persepective they aren't very viable in North America with the small numbers of target shooters at most clubs. The payback with regards to saving money on paper targets is basically non-exsistent. If you use anything but Meyton, you have those paper roles and they are'nt cheap to have sent to NA.

As all the even little clubs in germany seem to have electronic targets somehow I think their pricing in Europe is vastly different then what they sell them for in NA.

[rrpc]

Who has a complete electronic system that is $4500, with all the required part ie monitors, cables, consumables. for .22. Air systems are cheaper yes.

Megalink do. One target for everything up to and including RF Pistol: www.megalink.no

For a single target with a PC or laptop as monitor they will do a unit for $1750 approx.

If you use anything but Meyton, you have those paper roles and they are'nt cheap to have sent to NA.

Not cheap to send to Ireland either, but if you get enough it's worthwhile and at less than $20 a roll that's not bad. For smallbore they use a rubber roll which lasts a lot longer and can be rewound many times before being replaced. In any case, I'm sure you could find a suitable manufacturer in NA for rubber or paper rolls.

As all the even little clubs in germany seem to have electronic targets somehow I think their pricing in Europe is vastly different then what they sell them for in NA.

You can deal direct with Megalink and they charge you the same price as anyone else. No agents or intermediaries to put the screws on the pricing.

[justaposition]

Azuaro:  I applaud what you are doing.  Building your own target turning system may be the only way to go.  The Gehmann target systems look great, but dealers in the U.S. refuse to bother selling the two systems you are making.  You have received some excellent responses to your questions.  I would like to fill-in on your question of where to find ranges to compete.I ran into this problem many years ago, and nothing has changed.  Same as you, I wanted to compete in international style competition.  Luckily there were a few people in my area that actually knew what international shooting consisted of, but the only rapid fire targets were 60 miles away.  After shooting in the National Championships in Black Canyon, AZ in 1980, my shooting tapered off and I never did solve the problem.So, having thought about it for awhile, and I believe if you want clubs to provide access to int'l rapid fire,  or int'l center fire, someone (you) need to find a way to provide them with turning target systems at a price they can afford or will pay.  If you could provide even a few target turning systems at near cost (not free) to shooting ranges or clubs where you would like to compete, you just might create the interest that will get others involved in your sport.Anyway, I'm with you, I think rapid fire is the most fun, a wonderful  challenge, and may get you on a National Team.  Remember, only two and one alternate are picked for the Olympics, but many more are picked for off-year competition such as the Pan American Games and the World Championships.Good Luck!

[Tom Amlie]

I would like to fill-in on your question of where to find ranges to compete.

Please forgive my apparent ignorance, but are there special requirements for RF turning targets as opposed to the turning targets for standard pistol? Most ranges that sponsor bullseye matches have turning targets at 25 yards. Are the targets placed closer together for RF than adjacent firing points would be for standard pistol? If that's not the issue, why would it not be possible to simply set up 5 targets on adjacent firing points and set the timer for 4, 6, or 8 seconds?

I've never fired a RF match before, but plan to this summer. If Pete Schreiber (organizer of matches near Richmond, VA) is reading, could you chime in on how you set up the targets?

[Mike M.]

Yup. The spacing on a proper RF bay is very precisely specified...and a normal American target range will not qualify in spacing. Nor turn time, either. U.S. ranges usually have targets that turn slower than molasses, while a RF bay is lightning-quick, and there is a specification for turn time.

[Spencer]

...Please forgive my apparent ignorance, but are there special requirements for RF turning targets as opposed to the turning targets for standard pistol?...

Nope - There is only the one ISSF standard for 25m turining targets (6.3.16 - 6.3.17). These cover Standard, RFP, 'Sport' and Centre Fire.

The only difference is the placing of the bay partitions and marking of the firing points used for RFP with the 1.5m wide shooting bay.

Spencer

[Ted Bell]

First, my apologies if we've kind of hijacked your thread - we do seem to have gotten away from your initial questions, but I did want to throw in our experience in shooting RF at monthly matches. We built portable, no frills target stands that hold the five targets in proper position, and have one stand for each shooter. We use a Pact timer to shoot the match. The down side with the timer is that you can only run one shooter at a time, but the plus side is the timer records the precise time of all shots, and clearly shows if any shot was late. We run each shooter one at a time, then go down and score all the targets. Since the longest string is only 8 seconds, running down the line one shooter at a time really doesn't drag it out all that much. We started out two years ago with one person shooting RF at each match, and now we regularly have three or four. The best way to get people interested in shooting RF is to just start doing it - others will become interested and take it up themselves.

Thanks,
Ted