I have a Morini CM84E owner's manual but I still have questions! Can the sight base be moved back on the barrel to minimize muzzle weight? Is it a common practice to enlarge the chamber diameter? What are the pros and cons of doing this. What spring ar most shooters using in the trigger? If I like a trigger weight of say 160 grams would I be better off using the medium spring and cranking the adjustment screw to the max or using the heaviest spring and setting the adjustment screw on the minimum? Is Lapue the ammo of choice in the Morini?
Thanks to all who respond.
Susan
Morini 84 E Sight Base
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Fred Mannis
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- Location: Delaware
Re: Morini 84 E Sight Base
Susan,shadow wrote:I have a Morini CM84E owner's manual but I still have questions! Can the sight base be moved back on the barrel to minimize muzzle weight? Is it a common practice to enlarge the chamber diameter? What are the pros and cons of doing this. What spring ar most shooters using in the trigger? If I like a trigger weight of say 160 grams would I be better off using the medium spring and cranking the adjustment screw to the max or using the heaviest spring and setting the adjustment screw on the minimum? Is Lapue the ammo of choice in the Morini?
I know two shooters who felt that their Morini FP was too muzzle heavy, so they cut a few inches off the barrel and either reinstalled the sight base, or installed the long Morini compensator which allowed them to maintain sight radius. I shot one of them and the balance felt very good to me. If you have a good gunsmith do the work, there should be no loss in group size.
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Fred.Mannis
A little closer to (my) home: Leni-Lenape club in Boyertown is having a 50 yd FP match and a Standard Pistol match on April 26. Got a new ISSF legal palm rest on my IZH35 so I can now shoot SP with it.
What made you give up on the Toz? I finally sold mine because I just could not properly/comfortably position my finger on the trigger. The Morini is a fine gun
Fred
What made you give up on the Toz? I finally sold mine because I just could not properly/comfortably position my finger on the trigger. The Morini is a fine gun
Fred
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Steve Swartz
Susan:
First of all Welcome! Welcome to the Target Talk forum and also (by inductive reasoning; you are a "newbie") to the joys and sorrows of Extreme Precision Handgun Shooting.
Now for some (seemingly curmudgeonly?) specific answers to your specific questions.
The answer to your questions are "It Depends" on why you bought the Free Pistol in the first place.
1. Reducing the muzzle weight: reduces the guns functionality for Free Pistol shooting- if you are female, then you can't compete in Free Pistol anyway so I guess that question is fair enough. Can't think offhand of any international/national events (iron sight silhouette? Better options out there) that you would or could compete in, so I will assume you are not going to be using the gun for serious competition.
Yes, you could trim the barrel or trim the compensator. Either one could negatively affect accuracy, even if performed by a competent gunsmith.
2. Enlarging the chamber diameter: It's a "match chamber." If you try to enlarge it you will have a very expensive single shot "club gun." Very definite negative effect on accuracy.
3. Trigger Weight: Only really "semi adjustable" on guns of this type. The spring force can only be manipulated within a narrow range of values around the nominal weight of the spring. Pick the spring that you are most comfortable with and then adjust it a little bit up or down. A "family" of spring weights are available for this gun, so if the ones that come with the gun don't work then contact an importer/distributor for other options.
To your specific question, I suppose a heavier spring adjusted down would have longer life than a lighter spring adjusted up.
4. Ammunition: You will have to try a variety of "match grade" ammunition brands, types, and lots under "laboratory" conditions to find the "right" ammo for your gun. Alternately, since the variation between lots of the same brand and type will frequently have greater impact than the variation between brands . . . any quality "match grade" ammo will do.
As a starting point, the brand indicated by the test target that came with your gun is certainly not "best" (except by concidence) in any absolute sense but will be "good enough" for medaling in the Olympics. Which is pretty darned good for most of us.
Good Luck! Enjoy your fine piece of precision equipment- they are absolutely marvels of design.
Steve Swartz
First of all Welcome! Welcome to the Target Talk forum and also (by inductive reasoning; you are a "newbie") to the joys and sorrows of Extreme Precision Handgun Shooting.
Now for some (seemingly curmudgeonly?) specific answers to your specific questions.
The answer to your questions are "It Depends" on why you bought the Free Pistol in the first place.
1. Reducing the muzzle weight: reduces the guns functionality for Free Pistol shooting- if you are female, then you can't compete in Free Pistol anyway so I guess that question is fair enough. Can't think offhand of any international/national events (iron sight silhouette? Better options out there) that you would or could compete in, so I will assume you are not going to be using the gun for serious competition.
Yes, you could trim the barrel or trim the compensator. Either one could negatively affect accuracy, even if performed by a competent gunsmith.
2. Enlarging the chamber diameter: It's a "match chamber." If you try to enlarge it you will have a very expensive single shot "club gun." Very definite negative effect on accuracy.
3. Trigger Weight: Only really "semi adjustable" on guns of this type. The spring force can only be manipulated within a narrow range of values around the nominal weight of the spring. Pick the spring that you are most comfortable with and then adjust it a little bit up or down. A "family" of spring weights are available for this gun, so if the ones that come with the gun don't work then contact an importer/distributor for other options.
To your specific question, I suppose a heavier spring adjusted down would have longer life than a lighter spring adjusted up.
4. Ammunition: You will have to try a variety of "match grade" ammunition brands, types, and lots under "laboratory" conditions to find the "right" ammo for your gun. Alternately, since the variation between lots of the same brand and type will frequently have greater impact than the variation between brands . . . any quality "match grade" ammo will do.
As a starting point, the brand indicated by the test target that came with your gun is certainly not "best" (except by concidence) in any absolute sense but will be "good enough" for medaling in the Olympics. Which is pretty darned good for most of us.
Good Luck! Enjoy your fine piece of precision equipment- they are absolutely marvels of design.
Steve Swartz
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Steve,1. Reducing the muzzle weight: reduces the guns functionality for Free Pistol shooting- if you are female, then you can't compete in Free Pistol anyway so I guess that question is fair enough. Can't think offhand of any international/national events (iron sight silhouette? Better options out there) that you would or could compete in, so I will assume you are not going to be using the gun for serious competition.
Yes, you could trim the barrel or trim the compensator. Either one could negatively affect accuracy, even if performed by a competent gunsmith.
I fail to see how reducing the muzzle weight, i.e. changing the balance of a FP reduces its functionality. That is a matter of personal preference. I know of at least one highly ranked FP shooter who does not like a muzzle heavy gun.
Yes, shortening the barrel could reduce accuracy, but in practice it does not. I had 3.5" removed from the barrel of my Pardini and it still shoots sub 1" ten shot groups at 50 yd.
I have shot against Susan in Free Pistol and have found her to be a serious competitor.
Fred
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Steve Swartz
Yes Fred you are absolutely correct on all counts.
Susan, do some checking around (and some reading; I suggest "Competitive Pistol Shooting" by A.A. Yu'Yev) for the issue of muzzle weight & weight distribution in Free Pistol.
As to the shortening of the barrel, it's not the "length" that matters; it is the condition of the crown after shortening that generally suffers. Not all gunsmiths have the precision machine tool equipment to do the job properly.
The flat and crown must be exactly turned and finished or the accuracy will suffer (might still be "o.k." [depending on yotur needs] afterwards, but it will still be degraded). *Nobody* does it better than the factory- when it comes to world class international pistols.
Steve Swartz
Susan, do some checking around (and some reading; I suggest "Competitive Pistol Shooting" by A.A. Yu'Yev) for the issue of muzzle weight & weight distribution in Free Pistol.
As to the shortening of the barrel, it's not the "length" that matters; it is the condition of the crown after shortening that generally suffers. Not all gunsmiths have the precision machine tool equipment to do the job properly.
The flat and crown must be exactly turned and finished or the accuracy will suffer (might still be "o.k." [depending on yotur needs] afterwards, but it will still be degraded). *Nobody* does it better than the factory- when it comes to world class international pistols.
Steve Swartz
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Fred Mannis
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- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Perhaps the armorers at the AMU? :-)Steve Swartz wrote: The flat and crown must be exactly turned and finished or the accuracy will suffer (might still be "o.k." [depending on your needs] afterwards, but it will still be degraded). *Nobody* does it better than the factory- when it comes to world class international pistols.
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Steve Swartz
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Morini - To Steve Swartz
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your reply. I did not want to shorten the bbl. I just wondered if the sight base could be mounted in more than one location. I like Free Pistol because I like slow fire. I shoot Free Pistol in NRA matches, USA Shooting matches, and our State Games. My name appears on the USA Shooting list of Nationally ranked Free Pistol Shooters despite the fact that the it"mens". No, I do not have national or Olympic aspirations. The reason that I asked about the chamber is because I read that some shooters have them enlarged and I want to know how to tell the difference.
Thanks for your response.
It is always nice to discuss things with shooters of such a high "caliber"!
Susan
Thanks for your reply. I did not want to shorten the bbl. I just wondered if the sight base could be mounted in more than one location. I like Free Pistol because I like slow fire. I shoot Free Pistol in NRA matches, USA Shooting matches, and our State Games. My name appears on the USA Shooting list of Nationally ranked Free Pistol Shooters despite the fact that the it"mens". No, I do not have national or Olympic aspirations. The reason that I asked about the chamber is because I read that some shooters have them enlarged and I want to know how to tell the difference.
Thanks for your response.
It is always nice to discuss things with shooters of such a high "caliber"!
Susan
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Susan,
I'm afraid I did not read your original questions carefully enough - I do not know for sure whether the sight mount can be moved back. I doubt it. If the issue is balance, not weight, then I have found that small rare earth magnets applied to the barrel or frame can be used to change the balance. Of course the total weight will go up.
Fred
I'm afraid I did not read your original questions carefully enough - I do not know for sure whether the sight mount can be moved back. I doubt it. If the issue is balance, not weight, then I have found that small rare earth magnets applied to the barrel or frame can be used to change the balance. Of course the total weight will go up.
Fred
Short Barrel Morini
The original foresight mount can be moved back so that the barrel is flush with the end of the mount. Remove the foresight, loosen and remove the mount screw.
Push the mount all the way back and refit the lock screw in the most forward mount hole (it must mate with the dimple in the barrel). Then re-fit the foresight.
I have a shortened barrel on my Morini 84, the barrel was shortened by 2" (from 12" to 10" - shorten from the back end and re chamber because the barrel is profiled).
The sight radius was extended rearward with an extension and grip change.
The main reason was to produce a high wind short pistol for the Athens Olympics, it also moves the balance rearward toward the trigger shoe.
The pistol is also fitted with a four port compensator and was chambered for match ammo and better extraction with a Lynx match reamer.
The Foresight, trigger shoe and rear sight are now almost identical to a Toz 35 and is very good to shoot in a wind.
Push the mount all the way back and refit the lock screw in the most forward mount hole (it must mate with the dimple in the barrel). Then re-fit the foresight.
I have a shortened barrel on my Morini 84, the barrel was shortened by 2" (from 12" to 10" - shorten from the back end and re chamber because the barrel is profiled).
The sight radius was extended rearward with an extension and grip change.
The main reason was to produce a high wind short pistol for the Athens Olympics, it also moves the balance rearward toward the trigger shoe.
The pistol is also fitted with a four port compensator and was chambered for match ammo and better extraction with a Lynx match reamer.
The Foresight, trigger shoe and rear sight are now almost identical to a Toz 35 and is very good to shoot in a wind.
light weight barrel
The was a "lighter weight barrel" Morini at the European Championships (air) on display last year.
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Steve Swartz
Susan:
David M gave a good description of how to move sights back (which will shift the muzzle weight rearward). Move collar back on barrel; and can move sights back on collar. If the issue is sight picture "sensitivity" more than weight distribution, can also use wider front sight and open up rear notch for a better picture and easier alignment.
Generally match grade guns are given a "match chamber" which s significantly tighter than "normal" because this improves accuracy considerably. Enlarging the chamber will move accuracy in the other direction I'm afraid. Some shooters may value ease in loading over accuracy and open up the chamber- I can think of no other reason to convert a "match chamber" to a "non-match chamber." If ease of loading is an issue, I would suggest buffing/polishing the radius of the chamber mouth before I would actually open up the chamber. The best way to test for a sloppy chamber is to point the muzzle toward the ground and "gravity drop" a (clean of lube) round into the chamber. If it falls into the chamber (or even halfway for that matter) on its own, then the chamber is probably no longer "match grade."
There are certainly other opinions out there but the whole "tight chamber=more accuracy" thing I think is relatively indisputable. The only question I think is *how much* accuracy you are will ing to give up for the pleasure of easier chambering/ejecting.
Then again, I am regularly criticized for the "confidence" shall we say in my own "opinions" on matters such as these . . . !
Steve
David M gave a good description of how to move sights back (which will shift the muzzle weight rearward). Move collar back on barrel; and can move sights back on collar. If the issue is sight picture "sensitivity" more than weight distribution, can also use wider front sight and open up rear notch for a better picture and easier alignment.
Generally match grade guns are given a "match chamber" which s significantly tighter than "normal" because this improves accuracy considerably. Enlarging the chamber will move accuracy in the other direction I'm afraid. Some shooters may value ease in loading over accuracy and open up the chamber- I can think of no other reason to convert a "match chamber" to a "non-match chamber." If ease of loading is an issue, I would suggest buffing/polishing the radius of the chamber mouth before I would actually open up the chamber. The best way to test for a sloppy chamber is to point the muzzle toward the ground and "gravity drop" a (clean of lube) round into the chamber. If it falls into the chamber (or even halfway for that matter) on its own, then the chamber is probably no longer "match grade."
There are certainly other opinions out there but the whole "tight chamber=more accuracy" thing I think is relatively indisputable. The only question I think is *how much* accuracy you are will ing to give up for the pleasure of easier chambering/ejecting.
Then again, I am regularly criticized for the "confidence" shall we say in my own "opinions" on matters such as these . . . !
Steve
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Susan - glad to see you're forging ahead with the Morini. I hope it serves you well.
Let's see if we can get some more thought-provoking responses going here...
1) trigger spring - the medium spring will get you into 160 grams fairly well. I shoot the light one at between 80 & 100 grams.
2) chamber - don't even think of opening it up. Factory barrels will group well with just about any decent ammo you put in it. Mess with the chamber and you've just killed the group size. A friend had a barrel made without employing a match chamber reamer. Total waste of money as the gun would not hold the 10-ring at 50m.
3) Balance. My favourite subject as I am physically unable to shoot a muzzle heavy pistol. On my CM84 I employed a number of different sight holders. In fact, I drew quite a number of stares and guffaws at a World Cup at Ft. Benning when I showed up with my "OakenBreak", a compensator made of oak and wrapped with carbon strand. This was modelled after the original Morini comp, retained its long sight radius, but kept the balance point just foward of the trigger. This thing worked well for me at that time, but by then my shoulder was already in serious trouble so my scores were declining rapidly.
My next toy was the regular Morini sight holder cut in helf. I used the rear half mounted flush with the muzzle. This again produced a balance point just forward of the trigger.
The next experiment was to produce a highly modified aluminum sight holder. A friend of mine machined his for me and did a lovely job of it. Total weight is only 17 grams. Unfortunately this moved the centre of balance back to just behind the trigger. Group size suffered badly as a result of this change in balance point.
At the moment I'm shooting with the factory sight holder (aka "bloop tube") mounted with its forward end flush with the muzzle, and with the sight mounted in the forward-most location. This seems to be the best combination for me right now.
I also have provision to attach weight at the rear of the grip if I need to fine-tune the balance point. The unfortunate thing with balance weights is that they increase the total mass of the pistol, and my shoulder won't tolerate a heavy pistol either, so this is sub-optimal.
4) Ammo... The "ammo of choice" is the ammo that your particular barrel shoots best. My Morini barrels happen to group very well (18-20mm) with an old case of Eley Tenex that I have. That stuff is reserved for matches since I definitely can't buy Tenex in cardboard boxes any more! New Tenex doesn't group well at all. Go figure! Strangely enough, one of my barrels loves Remington Target (ugh!) and the other doesn't. Unanimously, they spit RWS ammo all over the paper (comparatively, groups in excess of 35mm). Lapua is good stuff for grouping, but certainly not better than Eley in my barrels.
But EACH barrel is UNIQUE. Only by performing group testing with your barrel will you find the "best" ammo for your gun. When you find it, buy several cases of that same lot number. My testing with Eley Target Pistol as a reference has shown large variations in grouping on a lot-to-lot basis, variations that have been larger than the difference in group size between Eley Target Pistol and Eley Tenex!
Let's see if we can get some more thought-provoking responses going here...
1) trigger spring - the medium spring will get you into 160 grams fairly well. I shoot the light one at between 80 & 100 grams.
2) chamber - don't even think of opening it up. Factory barrels will group well with just about any decent ammo you put in it. Mess with the chamber and you've just killed the group size. A friend had a barrel made without employing a match chamber reamer. Total waste of money as the gun would not hold the 10-ring at 50m.
3) Balance. My favourite subject as I am physically unable to shoot a muzzle heavy pistol. On my CM84 I employed a number of different sight holders. In fact, I drew quite a number of stares and guffaws at a World Cup at Ft. Benning when I showed up with my "OakenBreak", a compensator made of oak and wrapped with carbon strand. This was modelled after the original Morini comp, retained its long sight radius, but kept the balance point just foward of the trigger. This thing worked well for me at that time, but by then my shoulder was already in serious trouble so my scores were declining rapidly.
My next toy was the regular Morini sight holder cut in helf. I used the rear half mounted flush with the muzzle. This again produced a balance point just forward of the trigger.
The next experiment was to produce a highly modified aluminum sight holder. A friend of mine machined his for me and did a lovely job of it. Total weight is only 17 grams. Unfortunately this moved the centre of balance back to just behind the trigger. Group size suffered badly as a result of this change in balance point.
At the moment I'm shooting with the factory sight holder (aka "bloop tube") mounted with its forward end flush with the muzzle, and with the sight mounted in the forward-most location. This seems to be the best combination for me right now.
I also have provision to attach weight at the rear of the grip if I need to fine-tune the balance point. The unfortunate thing with balance weights is that they increase the total mass of the pistol, and my shoulder won't tolerate a heavy pistol either, so this is sub-optimal.
4) Ammo... The "ammo of choice" is the ammo that your particular barrel shoots best. My Morini barrels happen to group very well (18-20mm) with an old case of Eley Tenex that I have. That stuff is reserved for matches since I definitely can't buy Tenex in cardboard boxes any more! New Tenex doesn't group well at all. Go figure! Strangely enough, one of my barrels loves Remington Target (ugh!) and the other doesn't. Unanimously, they spit RWS ammo all over the paper (comparatively, groups in excess of 35mm). Lapua is good stuff for grouping, but certainly not better than Eley in my barrels.
But EACH barrel is UNIQUE. Only by performing group testing with your barrel will you find the "best" ammo for your gun. When you find it, buy several cases of that same lot number. My testing with Eley Target Pistol as a reference has shown large variations in grouping on a lot-to-lot basis, variations that have been larger than the difference in group size between Eley Target Pistol and Eley Tenex!
Morini
The Morini sight base has been re-installed flush with the muzzle. I weighed it and it is only 54 grams. I looked heavier! It was filthy! At least it will not get lead crud again with it mounted flush. I cannot comment on balance because the rest of the gun is still at the FFL. I will shoot it again Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. I should be able to take possession of it in a week or so.
Thanks to everyone who gave me such detailed information.
I will keep you posted.
Susan
Thanks to everyone who gave me such detailed information.
I will keep you posted.
Susan
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Morini
Hi Fred!
I moved my sight base back flush with the muzzle. It sure is not muzzle heavy now. I was surprised that the trigger has two mounting positions. I have absolutely no trouble reaching this trigger now. This gun is really starting to work for me. I do not think that I want a comp because I like where my sight base is located now. Out of curiosity, I have heard of the comp terms long and short and old and new. What are the differences?
Susan
I moved my sight base back flush with the muzzle. It sure is not muzzle heavy now. I was surprised that the trigger has two mounting positions. I have absolutely no trouble reaching this trigger now. This gun is really starting to work for me. I do not think that I want a comp because I like where my sight base is located now. Out of curiosity, I have heard of the comp terms long and short and old and new. What are the differences?
Susan