Getting started - what pistol(s) to buy

[farnsworth]

I have been reading about the sport a bit and am very interested in getting started. Please excuse the newbie questions and/or direct me to a faq if these questions have been answered before.

I have a Crosman 1377. This is my first gun of any kind so I am just getting a sense of things. With the crosman I have improved to the point where I can reliably make a 1" three shot grouping at 20ft (6 meters). I have no idea if this is the limit of the gun or the limit of my skill. I know that the crosman is not a real target pistol but I suspect it is capable of a tighter grouping.

My questions for the group are:
1) What would a reasonable grouping be for shooting a crosman 1377 at 20ft?

2) Should I continue to learn with the crosman or will the use of a lower level gun like this make me develop bad habits that need to be unlearned?

3) For my next gun, should I get a IZH 46M, Gamo COMPACT, or the Daisy AVANTI 747. I generally like the idea of a single pump gun since it seems like less trouble as compared to a CO2 or scuba system. Right now I am leaning to the IZH but wanted to know if anyone has any opinions on the other guns and/or other options that I have not considered.

4) How long does a match pistol last?
In terms of shots fired about what would one expect from a match pistol? From what I read a match is 60 shots and I assume that over a year a shooter will fire a few thousand shots and dry fire the gun a bunch more. Given this what gun provides the best value in terms of reliability and replacement part availablity?

[Fred Mannis]

Here is an earlier discussion on the IZH vs the Daisy pistols http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... hlight=717

and here is some info on mods for the Daisy http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... hlight=717

Either one is a step up from the Crossman. I don't care for the Gamo.
Best way to determine the group size for your Crossman/pellet combo is to shoot it from a rest. It should do at least 1" groups at 20 ft.

Match grade pistols last many years - at least 10 and 20 is not unreasonable. Seals have to be replaced every few years. This is why a used match grade AP is a good starting point for a beginner.

[MattW]

Hi There,
I'm sure many others on here will offer advice, but a couple of months ago I was in your position, so from a UK based newbie perspective...

I was advised to get a second hand match grade AP rather than a cheaper (but new) gun. I found an F.A.S. AP 604 (single stroke pneumatic of the type you refer to above). I changed the seals (an easy job, but pretty cheap for a gunsmith, if you don't fancy it) and it has proved to be a revelation over some of the cheaper air pistols I've used. The trigger in particular is superb (at least to me anyway) - fully adjustable and breaks crisply and predictably. The gun is abviously very well made and has a reassuring 'quality' feel . It also has a proper, adjustable anatomical match grip.

I can now shoot five shot 1/2" groups fairly consistently at 6yards, but I know the gun has much more in it - I'm the limiting factor (every now and again, when it all comes together, I'll shoot a string of 10's - a great feeling!).

At the moment, I'm shooting about a tin of 500 pellets / week (I don't bother dry firing as pellets are so cheap) - I can see it lasting at least another 10+ years with occasional seals - another advantage of a well made 'quality' pistol.

The only trouble is that it's so addictive that I can hear Steyr's and Morini's etc calling to me..... :)

best
Matt

[Richard H]

Welcome glad to hear you're enjoying shooting.

My questions for the group are:
1) What would a reasonable grouping be for shooting a crosman 1377 at 20ft?

Is there a reason you're only shooting at 20ft, normally air pistol is shot at 10m (approx 33 ft). I really wouldn't worry about the grouping from a Crosman. I'm sure out of a rest the Crosman would group somewhere in the inch range. The Crosman is more of a plinker for fun than a serious target pistol.

2) Should I continue to learn with the crosman or will the use of a lower level gun like this make me develop bad habits that need to be unlearned?

If you want to seriously target shoot you'd be best to pick up a target pistol as soon as you can afford one. That said you're better off shooting the Crosman than nothing so don't let anyones comments dissaude you from shooting what you have.

3) For my next gun, should I get a IZH 46M, Gamo COMPACT, or the Daisy AVANTI 747. I generally like the idea of a single pump gun since it seems like less trouble as compared to a CO2 or scuba system. Right now I am leaning to the IZH but wanted to know if anyone has any opinions on the other guns and/or other options that I have not considered.

Of that list I'd really only consider the IZH 46. There is also the Tau. I'd consider an older used target pistol too. Target pistol last a really long time so there are very good used pistols on the market. By going to a used pistol you can often get much bang for your buck (oun intended).

4) How long does a match pistol last?
In terms of shots fired about what would one expect from a match pistol? From what I read a match is 60 shots and I assume that over a year a shooter will fire a few thousand shots and dry fire the gun a bunch more. Given this what gun provides the best value in terms of reliability and replacement part availablity?

I disagree with Freds low end I'd be hard pressed to find a match pistol that would only last 10 years with any reasonable amount of care (less abuse). Air pistol are pretty simplistic machines, the usual things that can fail in them are seals (the most common and cheapest thing to fix) depending on the type of pistol the next thing in a compressed air gun would be the regulator (still not overly expensive to fix and replace. A good quality match gun with reasonable amount of care will last a very long time into the decades I suspect for most (most will get tired of it and want something newer before they wear out an air pistol).


To Matt with regards to dry firing, its not done to save money on pellets. Lots of things can be seen with your shoot process by dry firing that the individual can not see while live firing. There are some good articles on dryfiring one of the best that I've read is by Tom Redhead a UK coach.

[MattW]

To Matt with regards to dry firing, its not done to save money on pellets. Lots of things can be seen with your shoot process by dry firing that the individual can not see while live firing. There are some good articles on dryfiring one of the best that I've read is by Tom Redhead a UK coach.

Thanks Richard - I'll look out for that article.

I have read about dry firing but hadn't realised quite how useful it is. However, one thing which might be a problem for me is that I'm not sure if my FAS should be dry fired (I read something about seal damage if fully cocked or valve damaged if just the hammer is cocked..)

Anyway - apologies for the highjack - back to you Fred!

Matt

[Houngan]

FWIW, I'm getting to the point where I'm shooting 91% or so with my IZH, and I'm still not able to blame any shots on the gun. It did require grip tuning and trigger/sight adjustment, but everything I do wrong, I do before the gun launches the pellet.

H.

[Brian M]

FWIW, I'm getting to the point where I'm shooting 91% or so with my IZH, and I'm still not able to blame any shots on the gun. It did require grip tuning and trigger/sight adjustment, but everything I do wrong, I do before the gun launches the pellet.

H.

I feel the exact same way. I've shot 5-shot groups that could easily be covered by a dime (2 in a row last night). When a shot is somewhere other than I desire, it's because of a fault in my process...

Brian

ShootingAir.com

[farnsworth]

Thanks!

I plan to order the IZH.

I was using 20ft because my garage is a big small but when I get the IZH I will be able to setup an honest 10m range using the length of the garage and leaving the door to the house open so standing in the house I can shoot into the garage and make it all work out. The only real issue is that I need to move some stuff around to get the honest 10m range.

-mark

[Houngan]

It's a matter of taste, but I left in some first stage travel, and took out the second stage travel (overtravel) entirely, and my trigger control seemed to improve immediately. One thing you can't do with the IZH is adjust the first stage weight, it's just a light spring tension until you hit the second stage.

H.

[farnsworth]

I am very excited about the IHZ but for now it is out of stock at all the resellers so for a while I will use the Crosman 1377c until the IHZ becomes more available.

I also bought some targets. The ones I got are made by GAMO and look similar to the ones described on the Air Pistol sites I have seen. The GAMO targets have a white area 9 and 10 rings. The GAMO targets were sold at the local DICK's sporting goods store.


Are the targets used in matches like the GAMO or are all black like the ones sold at pilkguns?


I also created a blog to track my progress in this new and exciting sport.
http://airpistol.blogspot.com/

[Richard H]

They are like the bottom one, the ones that Pilk's sell.

[Houngan]

You should be able to find printable targets on the internet, find one that is 4 targets per page. After you print them out, stick a square of masking tape over the back of the black area, this will let you practice cheaply, and still have clean holes.

H.

[frog5215]

No harm is done to any of the pneumatics (PC or SSP) by dry firing. Dry fire cautions apply to spring-piston guns that need the energy of the fired pellet to buffer the piston slamming into the end of the cylinder. You still see dry fire cautions in the owner's manuals because the manuals are typically general to all of the guns from a given manufacturer/importer. I think you're going to like your IZH, if you can find one at present. I have three, set up for AP silhouette. Here in Fort Worth, they're the go-to gun for those with less than $1000 to spend. Don't overlook Tau's or Aerons (some with better triggers than others). CO2 can be a pain, though. The biggest problem with a 747 is the trigger. Best wishes.

[philipnow]

Mark,

I got into shooting for a little while last year, and enjoyed it a lot. I've taken a bit of a hiatus as shooting aggravated some tendinitis in my shoulder.

When I started out, I first purchased an Izzy. I found shooting to be a lot of fun and shot a lot with it, probably too much too fast, as I don't think my shoulder was conditioned adequately, hence the tendinitis. I found the Izzy to be quite accurate, but it's not the lightest pistol. You mention in your blog: "Hopefully the IZH will be lighter and have a more stable grip then the crosman. I think that often my arm shaking was the biggest problem." Some people have no problem with the Izzy's weight, but if lightness is a priority, you may also consider other pistols. I bought an Anschutz LP@Light (also goes by Jr.) second, and like it even better than my Izzy. (The nicer pistol didn't necessarily translate into better scores.) If money's not too tight, my advice would be just get an Anschutz or Steyr or whatever feels best to you if you have the opportunity to try several nice pistols, and be done with it. Don't be put off by filling issues with PCP pistols. Other than the couple hundred more dollars to get a SCUBA tank, it's a cinch.

Philip

[jipe]

M I bought an Anschutz LP@Light (also goes by Jr.) second, and like it even better than my Izzy. If money's not too tight, my advice would be just get an Anschutz or Steyr or whatever feels best to you if you have the opportunity to try several nice pistols, and be done with it. Don't be put off by filling issues with PCP pistols. Other than the couple hundred more dollars to get a SCUBA tank, it's a cinch.

Philip

The LP@ light is the current model, the LP@ Junior was the previous light version of the LP@. The LP@ junior was less featured (different front sight, fixed palm rest...) than the LP@ light that has now almost all features of top match pistol. The only missing one is the barrel ports but this is normal since barrel ports consume some more air what should limit too much the number of shots per cylinder with a short cylinder pistol.

The LP@ light is the only really lightweight pistol (780g with XS grip) that has all the features and adjustments of top match pistol, including an absorber.
Other lightweight pistol are either heavier or less featured (cheaper pistol aimed at junior shooters like the Steyr LP2).

[8 Ring Ace]

I'm 8 Weeks into this Air Pistol Stuff...here's my take...
I wanted to buy a IZH, but I simply could NOT find one ANYWHERE...
So I bought a GAMO Compact Model Target Pistol-229$
My main purpose for buying it was that I wanted to get some "trigger time during the winter months". I'm glad I bought the GAMO because it kinda resembles my IZH 35 .22 pistol.
I shoot the '35 in Bullseye, FP, and Standard pistol during the Summer, so even though the Gamo ISN'T a great AP, I think I'm keeping the rust off by shooting it now.
The trigger on the Gamo was absolutely TERRIBLE! BUT!!! I pulled the grips and side cover off...Hmmmmm, judiciously streched a spring and
BINGO- I got a good 3# trigger pull that breaks about like my '35...
I am absolutely havin' a ball shooting the thing, and my scores are 520+/-
6 points...not bad for an old man with bad eyes. Best ting is I'm findin' a match a week to shoot in!
I would STRONGLY suggest that you get yourself to some matches with the gun you got and start slingin' lead. You are gonna meet some GREAT people that will do everything they can to help you get started in the sport.
See what they are shooting- and they'll probably let you shoot some of their stuff-or- maybe some of the guys you'll meet will have good used stuff for sale... Jump on in- it's FUN!

[frog5215]

Don't forget to check used pistols from Pilkington, Also, Pomona claims to have IZH in stock.

[farnsworth]

At my raw beginner level I will go with a Daisy 747 since it is made in the USA (i think) and it sounds like it is at least a decent gun. After a while I might upgrade but I am sure that the Daisy will meet my needs for a while and it is probably a better fit for target shooting vs. the Crosman 1377c that I am using now. I also read online that it is quiet and that should make my wife happy.

[Richard H]

I could be wrong but I'd suspect the Daisy is made in China.