I'd list the requirements in the following order:
1. Desire. You have to want to win. More than just about anything else.
2. Drive. This couples with desire...but is an aspect of stubborness. It takes patient, loving practice to make a champion. Instant gratification is for losers.
3. Confidence. You have to have the fighter ace's mindset...you are eager for the fight - because it is the OTHER guy that is going to get shot out of the sky. Your confidence in your ability and your gear MUST be unshakeable.
4. Rivals. It helps an enormous amount to have people to chase...or people who will beat the pants off you if you let up one iota.
5. Innate talent. Some people have it. Others don't. Not that it matters...because in the end, the first three dominate.
6. Coaching. This is like innate talent - it does not make winners, but it helps pave the road for them.
Nature vs Nurture
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
thanks fred, link went straight to it.
article was fine. I think he is talking more about talent identification.
what some see as raw talent, is not the only attribute you are looking for in talent identification.
Talent identification is looking at the individual as a whole, results being the least important. In time results will come with lots hard work.
article was fine. I think he is talking more about talent identification.
what some see as raw talent, is not the only attribute you are looking for in talent identification.
Talent identification is looking at the individual as a whole, results being the least important. In time results will come with lots hard work.
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2650 Plus
Mike, you have done a fine job of symplifing the real issues
I suspect each world record holder could write a better book if so inclined. It may not be possible to perform at this extreem level without going beyond the current level of knowledge and tayloring your technique to maximize your own strengths and minimixe the effects of your weaknesses.Do you all believe ,as I do ,that champions are made and not borm? Mike seems to be describing the traits that must exist in an individual to give him/ her the potential to excell, Many of our posters seem to be caught up in a very complicated view of what is really a very simple act. Shoot tens. Good Shooting Bill Horton
shooting tens, simple, doing it 60 or so times in a row at world cup etc little bit harder. If it wasnt everyone would be doing it, then they would reduce the size of the ten again!
of course champions are made, not born. but few have what it takes to be a champion.
If it was just a matter of training training training, then they had better start producing a lot of gold medals for all the =first place getters.
how to win.
step A: shoot a ten
step B: goto step A
to easy
of course champions are made, not born. but few have what it takes to be a champion.
If it was just a matter of training training training, then they had better start producing a lot of gold medals for all the =first place getters.
how to win.
step A: shoot a ten
step B: goto step A
to easy
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2650 Plus
Nurturing
Bryan, I have hesitated to challenge some of your assumptions because I am unfamilure with your competitive background, however your repitition of the idea that its is somehow more difficult to shoot many tens ,one after the other is a barrier to a shooter being able to do exactly that. I see nothing wrong with forcing the ISSF into changing to a target with a smaller ten ring if shooters get to the point where that becomes necessary. Please consider my position that what the mind believes I can do then it becomes possible. And if the mind does not believe I can do it, then it becomes very unlikely that I will succede. Other wise how does one explain the 400s and 600s being shot in air rifle . Good Shooting Bill Horton
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2650 Plus
Nurturing
Bryan, I have hesitated to challenge some of your assumptions because I am unfamilure with your competitive background, however your repitition of the idea that its is somehow more difficult to shoot many tens ,one after the other is a barrier to a shooter being able to do exactly that. I see nothing wrong with forcing the ISSF into changing to a target with a smaller ten ring if shooters get to the point where that becomes necessary. Please consider my position that what the mind believes I can do then it becomes possible. And if the mind does not believe I can do it, then it becomes very unlikely that I will succede. Other wise how does one explain the 400s and 600s being shot in air rifle . Good Shooting Bill Horton
Bill. I fully agree that the mental side of shooting is so important. Unfortunatly, many shooter shy away from this side of the sport. You cannot excell if you do not have the confidence and mental stamina carry you through training and matches. Many times we hear people state that this sport is around 90% mental and 10% physical, but then they train in the physical side and all but ignore the mental side. The USOC is very involved in mental traing in all sports. As for reducing the size of the 10 ring. When Mat Emmons shot his 600 at thre 3x air gun match, his coach stated that the first thing Matt said to him was " there is nothing less than a 10.2 in the pack. That means that all the shots covered the middle of the bull so the score would not change if the 10 was mircoscopic.
If someone shoots 540 in training, no amount of mental training would take you past 550. Your elite mental skills would amount to repeatable execution of mediocre technique.
If I remember correctly, Russ mentioned that mental side of shooting is not of concern until you can do 575 or above on basics alone, and I totally agree with that. Folks that dive into the whole "mental" thing prematurely remind me of people that try to discuss particle physics / string theory while only having some knowledge of undergrad calculus.
As for the effective size of ten on an AR target, it can be made arbitrarily small using outward scoring.
If I remember correctly, Russ mentioned that mental side of shooting is not of concern until you can do 575 or above on basics alone, and I totally agree with that. Folks that dive into the whole "mental" thing prematurely remind me of people that try to discuss particle physics / string theory while only having some knowledge of undergrad calculus.
As for the effective size of ten on an AR target, it can be made arbitrarily small using outward scoring.
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2650 Plus
Nurturing
The last few comments are so dead on that I must agree. Of course the basic skills must come first, but many of us have developed those to a high degree. Yet we still fail to advance in scoring potential. That is the issue I was trying to go to. Once a shooter has developed the skill to shoot a perfect shot I believe it is mostly his self immage of his potential that prevents the world record level performance. If the shooter is surronded by positive support and every success is recognized by the support team and the shooter himself I think there is a good chance of the performance equalling the shooters expectations. We might call this confidence in the results of every shot before the shot is delivered. Bryan is there anything here that you dissagre with? The issue that I am dealing with is that the shooter must have the skills developed to enable him to deliver a perfect shot on the target and have an agressive self confidence that carries him through the competition. He must believe in the core of his being that he is supposed to win the match. Good Shooting Bill Horton
didnt mean to stir anyone up.
I understand where you are coming from bill, simplify everything. this is a good approach. just feel you over emphasis it. I probably sound like I go the other way?
90%-10% is about right, just dont forget you need 110% of the 10% (technique) you dont need 100% of the 90% (mental) to win a comp.
applying that would see you need 110% technique, before worrying to much about 90% mental.
so a 540 is not anywhere near perfect technique, so at this level, it is important to practice technique.
hope that clears things up slightly.
btw, if someone is flicking the odd sno ball to acheive 540, then a small increase in mental ability could result in a large gain.
it is a fact that not many people in the world can shoot lots tens in a row, it is also a fact that issf has reduced the size of the target as scores were getting to high. logic also says, if you can shoot one ten, whats the problem in shooting lots 10's. the little man in the back of your head is the problem.
bill, I think self beleif is one of many important processes, without it, you would be afraid, and unlikely be able to compete. just sweat alot!
Yes, I do ass u me to much sometimes.
also so many different levels to consider.
my competative background.
84/88/96/2004 olympics
90/94 comm games
82/86/90/94/02 world shooting championships.
the odd world cup, lost count?
several top 10's usually close to 10 haha.
some all the way to the other extreme if it didnt go to plan.
some junior medals, gold ind. com games medal a longtime ago.
trained in many countries
found it difficult to work, have a family and train to a higher level.
shot RT, till it was dropped 2004, decided to have a go at pistol. not so easy, one day.
I dont mind being challenged. issue is some things are very specific to a situation, and either missunderstood, or applied to something else.
I understand where you are coming from bill, simplify everything. this is a good approach. just feel you over emphasis it. I probably sound like I go the other way?
90%-10% is about right, just dont forget you need 110% of the 10% (technique) you dont need 100% of the 90% (mental) to win a comp.
applying that would see you need 110% technique, before worrying to much about 90% mental.
so a 540 is not anywhere near perfect technique, so at this level, it is important to practice technique.
hope that clears things up slightly.
btw, if someone is flicking the odd sno ball to acheive 540, then a small increase in mental ability could result in a large gain.
it is a fact that not many people in the world can shoot lots tens in a row, it is also a fact that issf has reduced the size of the target as scores were getting to high. logic also says, if you can shoot one ten, whats the problem in shooting lots 10's. the little man in the back of your head is the problem.
bill, I think self beleif is one of many important processes, without it, you would be afraid, and unlikely be able to compete. just sweat alot!
Yes, I do ass u me to much sometimes.
also so many different levels to consider.
my competative background.
84/88/96/2004 olympics
90/94 comm games
82/86/90/94/02 world shooting championships.
the odd world cup, lost count?
several top 10's usually close to 10 haha.
some all the way to the other extreme if it didnt go to plan.
some junior medals, gold ind. com games medal a longtime ago.
trained in many countries
found it difficult to work, have a family and train to a higher level.
shot RT, till it was dropped 2004, decided to have a go at pistol. not so easy, one day.
I dont mind being challenged. issue is some things are very specific to a situation, and either missunderstood, or applied to something else.
Sorry if this is off topic - I posted elsewhere and got no reply. So how exactly do the air rifle finals get scored? Is there a different target? I can' see how a 1/2mm 10 ring can get divided up into 10 smaller rings, or how one could visually discriminate at that small a division. Thanks for any answers.
Of course I have read the rules, but have never attended an event with finals. The rules that I read only refer to splitting the rings into 10 scoring segments - I just don't see how that happens on a bull the size of the air rifle bull.
Relevant Rule:
7.14.7.4 Scoring of the Finals will be conducted, if possible, with electronic
targets or target reading machines, or manual devices must be used
which classify each ring in ten sections (such as 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3,
etc., up to the maximum of 10.9). Shots on paper targets which
cannot be classified by target reading machines will be scored by
hand by Jury Members with ISSF approved instruments. In the 50 m
events target inserts (200 mm x 200 mm) may be used.
Jim - just wanting to understand...
Relevant Rule:
7.14.7.4 Scoring of the Finals will be conducted, if possible, with electronic
targets or target reading machines, or manual devices must be used
which classify each ring in ten sections (such as 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3,
etc., up to the maximum of 10.9). Shots on paper targets which
cannot be classified by target reading machines will be scored by
hand by Jury Members with ISSF approved instruments. In the 50 m
events target inserts (200 mm x 200 mm) may be used.
Jim - just wanting to understand...
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Guest
Most matches using finals have electronic targets systems which are capable of scoring in tenths.
On paper targets there is a plastic vernier type device which can be inserted in the shot hole, and tenths read from the scale across from the shot hole. May be a photo of this on the ISSF site.
Also, there is a new electronic scoring system using a scanner and computer, but you need special targets to use that system.
On paper targets there is a plastic vernier type device which can be inserted in the shot hole, and tenths read from the scale across from the shot hole. May be a photo of this on the ISSF site.
Also, there is a new electronic scoring system using a scanner and computer, but you need special targets to use that system.
See
[/url]http://www.precision-sports.com/titbits.htm[url]
for photo and usage of tenth overlay device.[/url]
[/url]http://www.precision-sports.com/titbits.htm[url]
for photo and usage of tenth overlay device.[/url]
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Steve Swartz
Back to the knitting . . .
So we all know how to shoot *a* ten 1
We have all shot more than a few tens in a row
Some of us have shot quite a few tens in any given match/training session
Why aren't we *all* shooting more tens and fewer not-tens?
Steve Swartz
1 or do we really? perhaps that is the key- we may/may not *think* we know how to "shoot a ten" but in reality it is possible to shoot quite a few tens without any idea how it really happens
So we all know how to shoot *a* ten 1
We have all shot more than a few tens in a row
Some of us have shot quite a few tens in any given match/training session
Why aren't we *all* shooting more tens and fewer not-tens?
Steve Swartz
1 or do we really? perhaps that is the key- we may/may not *think* we know how to "shoot a ten" but in reality it is possible to shoot quite a few tens without any idea how it really happens
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Maybe I'm way off base here, but I am not shooting tens. What I attempt to do is shoot a technically perfect shot. If it is a ten, I'm happy. If it is a nine, I'm satisfied. If neither, I move on to my next shot. I don't know how to shoot tens.Steve Swartz wrote:Back to the knitting . . .
So we all know how to shoot *a* ten 1
We have all shot more than a few tens in a row
Some of us have shot quite a few tens in any given match/training session
Why aren't we *all* shooting more tens and fewer not-tens?
Steve Swartz
1 or do we really? perhaps that is the key- we may/may not *think* we know how to "shoot a ten" but in reality it is possible to shoot quite a few tens without any idea how it really happens
In 37 or so years, I think I fired well a few times. Like 10s and Xs happened without trying and without anticipating them or anything. I just shot the gun that was in my hand. Sights aligned and steady, and trigger control. I recall a certain state of mind that is very elusive. And a certain physical condition that helped, but is also elusive these days. Not to mention eyesight.
I think I have a good understanding of the mechanics of the shot. Perhaps even to a rather good degree of technicality. Its that elusive mental thing that takes an Expert to Master, or a low 90s to a high 90s.
One thing that bugs me here and on other forums, is the win, win, win attitude. Win what? Most of us are Expert Class or low-mid 90s shooters at best. We have to defeat our fundamental flaws, and the monkey in or heads before we can take on the world.
Trying to consciously not shoot consciously is really hard.
Discuss...
I think I have a good understanding of the mechanics of the shot. Perhaps even to a rather good degree of technicality. Its that elusive mental thing that takes an Expert to Master, or a low 90s to a high 90s.
One thing that bugs me here and on other forums, is the win, win, win attitude. Win what? Most of us are Expert Class or low-mid 90s shooters at best. We have to defeat our fundamental flaws, and the monkey in or heads before we can take on the world.
Trying to consciously not shoot consciously is really hard.
Discuss...