Need advice: a new gun or more training?

[.donthc]

The Morini is nice but remember the grip is not as adjustable as either the lp10, P44 or Walther 300XT, if thats important to you.

The Anschutz LP@ has the same frame as the LP10 with same adjustements/quality but being less famous/known as the LP10 can sometimes be found at a lower price.

Morini 162MI have grip axis adjustable.
Price of top brand are similar in Italy:
Steyr LP10 ... 1400€,
Anshutz LP@ ... 1300€,
Morini162MI ... 1100€,
Feinwerkbau P44 ... 1400€,
..
... Pardini K2s Air ... 950€,
.... Benelli Kite ... 800€.

The options are illimitated.

I really think stop, because too much time, effort, and money are needed to continue. I hope to close well on September match, and then go away.
Thank you very much, i appreciate all your advice, and i'll continue evaluating possibilities.
Best regards,
Luke.[/quote]

your quotes are seriously overpriced. I'm from singapore, and thats a long long way from Europe, and the guns you quoted are still much cheaper here. I got a friend who purchased an Steyr LP10 for about the equivilent of 1150€. My club bought 3 of them at a price of 950€. 450€ less than what you quoted.

Maybe you should try getting a different dealer.

[LukeP]

First I demand the following before I will attempt to train with a pistol. " When I take my normal shooting grip ,extend to the target ,I want to see perfectly alligned sights as soon as the pistol reaches the aiming area on the target'" If this can be fixed by modifing the grips I am willing to do that . If it cannot ,I find a gun that allows me to accomplish that ,and apply pressure to the trigger that does not disturd sight allignment.

After 2 months, i haven't yet decided for a new air pistol.
I trained more and different way with izzy: i had understand something new, and found a new way to follow on training session.
Also my score are a bit upgraded as well.

Good point in favour of izzy are:
+ good sights,
+ good trigger.

To upgrade i want to find a pistol with:
- better grip with more vertical angle (i hade to push the wrist down to align with izzy), and grips hurt my wrist and my finger.
-better trigger
-lighter
-less noise-heavy
-good sights

I saved money, and now i'm looking about pardini k2s air, Steyr lp10, Morini cm162ei.

I tried Pardini at the range:
- trigger: the travel is cleaner than izzy, but izzy is a few more dry (maybe user setting).
- compensator has a disturbing silver coloration (for me).
- rear sight is dimensionally too big.
+ aiming is more simple than izzy.
+ balance is good.
- grip, i have to rotate a lot my foot position to align the barrel to my target.
= Pardini is not for me.

Next week i'll go to the shop and i'll try steyr and morini.
I'm searching for grip, sights and trigger.
I want to find a pistol that let me apply pressure to the trigger without disturbing sight alignment.

Thanks to all for your precious advice,
best regards,
LukeP.

[Richard H]

Remember all those are adjustable so it's hard to base it on how it feels out of the box. It really doesn't mean much on how soemthing from the factory was set. If they let you see if they will let you adjust it to your liking.

[crosshairs]

To upgrade i want to find a pistol with:
- better grip with more vertical angle (i hade to push the wrist down to align with izzy), and grips hurt my wrist and my finger.


I want to find a pistol that let me apply pressure to the trigger without disturbing sight alignment.

LukeP.

After a few months of modifying my grip and switching techniques that uses different tilting angles on the grip, I have come to realise something: the portion of the grip that defines the tilt (i think you call it rake) is not found in a reference axis of the grip, because it does not exist. We can attribute different proportions to certain parts of the grip like the front(that faces the target) or rear(the part where the fleshy part of your palm right below your thumb rests on) but if you were to look at the skeletal structure of your wrists, you will notice that the angle with which you hold your pistol is largely defined by how you place your last 3 fingers.

Simply put, by adding or removing material from the front of the grip, without adjusting the whole grip, you effectively change the tilt of the pistol. Adding or removing material from the rear merely changes the pivot point of the pistol, ultimately deciding what kind of "jump" you can expect during recoil. Not sure if it is an issue when using an LP10.

[Richard H]

To upgrade i want to find a pistol with:
- better grip with more vertical angle (i hade to push the wrist down to align with izzy), and grips hurt my wrist and my finger.


I want to find a pistol that let me apply pressure to the trigger without disturbing sight alignment.

LukeP.

After a few months of modifying my grip and switching techniques that uses different tilting angles on the grip, I have come to realise something: the portion of the grip that defines the tilt (i think you call it rake) is not found in a reference axis of the grip, because it does not exist. We can attribute different proportions to certain parts of the grip like the front(that faces the target) or rear(the part where the fleshy part of your palm right below your thumb rests on) but if you were to look at the skeletal structure of your wrists, you will notice that the angle with which you hold your pistol is largely defined by how you place your last 3 fingers.

Simply put, by adding or removing material from the front of the grip, without adjusting the whole grip, you effectively change the tilt of the pistol. Adding or removing material from the rear merely changes the pivot point of the pistol, ultimately deciding what kind of "jump" you can expect during recoil. Not sure if it is an issue when using an LP10.

That's not totally true with an LP10 to change rake angle you just adjust the screws on the front and back (grip adjustment screws) to different heights, with a Walther it's on a "gimble like" ball joint so you just loosen it and adjust, not sure about the FWB P44, but I'm pretty certain you can adjust it too.

Your statement is true about a Morini, as it has really no grip "adjustment" without modifying the grip. It's true for all other pistol that don't have grip adjustment too.

[LukeP]

Next week i'll go to the shop and i'll try steyr and morini.
I'm searching for grip, sights and trigger.
I want to find a pistol that let me apply pressure to the trigger without disturbing sight alignment.

Today i went to the shop.
I managed and dry fire with steyr lp10 and morini 162ei.

Steyr lp10, impression:
+ trigger: the travel is cleaner than izzy, and well dry; it feels too heavy on the final stage, but i think is regulable.. (i wish)
Trigger blade is very nice-touch, and friendly to approach.
+ balance: very well balanced in my hand, point extremely well.
- sight: i cannot see clearly the front sight, maybe is too far away for my eyeglasses or rear sight's window is too small.
- grip: the grip is L size, and it don't fit me; is too thin, is high enough but too thin and my flat palm and long fingers don't touch the wood. Look also not so beautiful.
- dry fire mode: simple and user friendly, but is needed opening and closing the bolt every time.
+ exterior finish: both frame colors (silver and black) are great; i'm sorry is not available gold color for the cylinders (nestruev rules... ;)), is only available blue or silver.
+ bore line and sight line: steyr line is very low on my hand, and point well.

Morini 162ei:
+ trigger: the trigger is simply amazing for me, imho, it feels as rolling trigger, it's quite difficult for me detecting when the trigger was breaking the final point, seems to me that the only way to shoot right way that trigger is follow letteraly the rules "aim, align and push the trigger attending shot breaks". I'm fear to shoot unsafe with that trigger.
The trigger blade seems too thin, like izzy blade, i prefer steyr ones, more wider and ridged sweeter.
+ balance: well balanced, maybe steyr is a little more nose heavy in my hand.
- sight: good, maybe the front sight is placed at different distance from my eyes and i can see it clearly; seems to me the rear sight is very high on my hand.
- grip: same as steyr, thin, grip angle non good to align for me.
+ dry fire mode: literally hypnotic, click click click click click... i was not able to stop.... ;)
- exterior finish: looks good but steyr looks better.
- bore line and sight line: seems to high on my hands, i had to push up my wrist literally "a lot" to see front sight aligned.

In the next days i'll try morini 162ei on fire test, i want to see what i can do with electronic trigger. Unfortunatelly i cannot test fire lp10, i think trigger is quite similar to my izzy ones, so i wish eventually take advantage of more ergonomics features of steyr...

See you later,
LukeP.

[Richard H]

Steyr lp10, impression:
- sight: i cannot see clearly the front sight, maybe is too far away for my eyeglasses or rear sight wondow is too small.
- grip: the grip is L size, and it don't fit me; is too thin, is high enough but too thin and my flat palm and long fingers don't touch the wood. Look also not so beautiful.
- dry fire mode: simple and user friendly, but is needed opening and closing the bolt every time.

The trigger is adjustable in travel, 1st stage weight, second stage weight, over travel, sear (don't mess with it), and position.

Sights can be moved both the rear and the front, noth width and depth and optional front sight widths are available.

Grip well if a large is too small then get an XL. As for it not looking nice well these are target pistol meant to be used not wall hangers. You'll find most people will be carving and puttying them up to suit their needs. The likelihood of getting a perfect grip out of a factory is slim. There are numerous after market grips, I've used both Rink and Nills (I prefer the Nills for me).

Not sure why cocking the pistol everytime is a negative, even when dryfiring you'r trying to actual simulate what you do for really. So unless you want a semi-auto you'll have to load and cock the psitol each time when shooting for real.

Morini 162ei:
- sight: good, maybe the front sight is placed at different distance from my eyes and i can see it clearly; seems to me the rear sight is very high on my hand.
- grip: same as steyr, thin, grip angle non good to align for me.
+ dry fire mode: literally hypnotic, click click click click click... i was not able to stop.... ;)
- exterior finish: looks good but steyr looks better.
- bore line and sight line: seems to high on my hands, i had to push up my wrist a lot to see front sight aligned.

The Morini does have a nice trigger.

Sights are adjustable on it too

Grip comments the same as above except you can't simply adjust the grip. It requires more carving and putting and if you think its ugly now wait till youo finish with it.

As for the plus on dry fire mode sure it might be fun but what purpose does pulling the trigger over and over do for you?

The bore line thing see comments above about grip adjustability.

In the next days i'll try morini 162ei on fire test, i want to see what i can do with electronic trigger. Unfortunatelly i cannot test fire lp10, i think trigger is quite similar to my izzy ones, so i wish eventually take advantage of more ergonomics features of steyr...

See you later,
LukeP.

The LP10 trigger is nothing like your Izzy.

[somewhereinla]

I own both an IZH 46m and an Anschutz LP@ (which I got recently), which as you know is the same as the Steyr LP10 except for the grip and the front sight. I do find the triggers to be quite different on both pistol. I think the transition between 1st and second stage with the LP@ is much crisper and it is easier to tell when you are about to fire where the IZH is almost to smooth. I do like the sights better on the LP@, but I like the knobs better in the IZH.

[LukeP]

The LP10 trigger is nothing like your Izzy.

Richard, i'm not teasing you, i have the izzy with me on the shop, i test lp10 trigger soon after izzy ones; as i wrote above, my personal first impression is trigger feel is quite similar, lp10 first and second time travel are cleaner, and this is the major differences. My izzy trigger (after over 15000 pellet fired and at least some dry fire) have a distinct final stage, and when sear engagement broke the point is dry. Steyr is more dry but not so distant.
Maybe lp10 on exposition is a crappy unit ;) , or imho izzy trigger is not so crappy.
Gently imho. ;)

I checked the possibility to have a special grip adjusted from a specialist of the shop, or i wish to try lp@ one if is different from lp10.

[LukeP]

I do like the sights better on the LP@, but I like the knobs better in the IZH.

Dear somewhereinla, what do you mean for knobs?
Do you mean the sight's regulation of izzy better than lp@?

Thank you.
Best regards,
LukeP.

[LukeP]

Grip well if a large is too small then get an XL. As for it not looking nice well these are target pistol meant to be used not wall hangers. You'll find most people will be carving and puttying them up to suit their needs. The likelihood of getting a perfect grip out of a factory is slim. There are numerous after market grips, I've used both Rink and Nills (I prefer the Nills for me).

Tomorrow evening i'll post a pics of my izzy grips, so you can understand how much i have suffered and how many times i have carved, destroied and rebuilted the grip over this year. Actually the grip is not perfect, but i'm accustomed to it, and i can shoot quite comfortable.

But i 'm changing pistol to preserve my wrist, and to upgrade every ones of this small aspects: many small upgrades to obtain a great result.

So i'm looking for a near perfect new grip, or i order one "tailor" from a specialist. "Do it yourself" for my grip, is not for me.. ;)

Thank you for your advice,
best regards,
LukeP.

[Richard H]

Grip well if a large is too small then get an XL. As for it not looking nice well these are target pistol meant to be used not wall hangers. You'll find most people will be carving and puttying them up to suit their needs. The likelihood of getting a perfect grip out of a factory is slim. There are numerous after market grips, I've used both Rink and Nills (I prefer the Nills for me).

Tomorrow evening i'll post a pics of my izzy grips, so you can understand how much i have suffered and how many times i have carved, destroied and rebuilted the grip over this year. Actually the grip is not perfect, but i'm accustomed to it, and i can shoot quite comfortable.

But i 'm changing pistol to preserve my wrist, and to upgrade every ones of this small aspects: many small upgrades to obtain a great result.

So i'm looking for a near perfect new grip, or i order one "tailor" from a specialist. "Do it yourself" for my grip, is not for me.. ;)

Thank you for your advice,
best regards,
LukeP.

Luke you didn't get my point about the trigger, you're comparing your trigger (izzy) to the LP10 that has factory adjustments. I'm sure you can adjust the LP10 trigger to make it better than your Izzy. I've shot an LP10 for years and love it, I'm also quick to admitt that the Morini Electronic trigger is probably the best trigger out there. For me though the trigger is important but so were other characteristics.

I understand the grip thing too, I have the orignal Morini grip that I've carved and puttied, I also went to a Rink then I visited Mr. Nills in Germany and got a grip that actually fit properly and it's wonderful (the Rinks are nice too). Seeing as you're in Italy it probably worth the trip to Nills to get the grip custom fitted, it worth the money.

It's a lot of money to spend and its good to see you doing some good research and asking smart questions. I'm sure in the end you'll get something you'll like. It looks like you've narrowed it down to the Morini and the LP10. That's usually the case, with either you cant go wrong.

Are you looking at the Morini Short or Long? Personally I like the balance on the short better, but others I know like the long with the short cylinder (haven't tried that myself though). Good luck and keep us informed on your decision.

[LukeP]

I understand the grip thing too, I have the original Morini grip that I've carved and puttied, I also went to a Rink then I visited Mr. Nills in Germany and got a grip that actually fit properly and it's wonderful (the Rinks are nice too). Seeing as you're in Italy it probably worth the trip to Nills to get the grip custom fitted, it worth the money.

It's a lot of money to spend and its good to see you doing some good research and asking smart questions. I'm sure in the end you'll get something you'll like. It looks like you've narrowed it down to the Morini and the LP10. That's usually the case, with either you cant go wrong.

Are you looking at the Morini Short or Long? Personally I like the balance on the short better, but others I know like the long with the short cylinder (haven't tried that myself though). Good luck and keep us informed on your decision.

Thank you Richard,
yeah you center the point... ;)!

The grip founded on lp10 and morini are not friendly for me, must be added material under palm and fingers, so i'm asking the help of the shop's specialist, seems he have a long experience with competition grips, he can make new one or modifing the original one, i'll decide when i talk directly to him.

Also you centered the point that is a lot of money to spend, but above all i'm sure that i can do good score with izzy, as the same with any other match pistol (and at the moment i'm doing good score and increasing my personal best with izzy); so upgrading pistol is searching to upgrade whole little things that all together can make my shooting life easier; also izzy unfortunately try to hurt my elbow and my wrist, and maybe his weight hidden defects in my trigger manipulation.
I think when i start up with the new pistol, morini as steyr, it take me a long while to return performing "decent score", but a near perfect trigger and less nose heavy pistol should oblige me training on perfectioning many elements.
Also with izzy i rarely shoot a very deep teen, maybe izzy hidden some of my technical defects.

I managed only the morini long version long cylinder, e few dry fire, so i cannot have a preferences... ;)
Next days i'll go to the range, and i ask to one of my companions to fire several shoot with his morini electronic, so i check balance and trigger.
Trigger feel nice, i want to see how it must be used.

Best regards,
LukeP.

[somewhereinla]

I do like the sights better on the LP@, but I like the knobs better in the IZH.

Dear somewhereinla, what do you mean for knobs?
Do you mean the sight's regulation of izzy better than lp@?

Thank you.
Best regards,
LukeP.

Yes, that's what I mean. They are more ergonomic since they "pop out" more.

[LukeP]

I have a question.

With steyr and morini: I put a pellet and close the bolt. After a moment i want to dry fire, because for example i was in panic.
Can i simply open the bolt, close it parzially and dry fire? Or is impossibile when i have close the bolt completely to shoot?

Thank you.
LukeP

[Richard H]

I have a question.

With steyr and morini: I put a pellet and close the bolt. After a moment i want to dry fire, because for example i was in panic.
Can i simply open the bolt, close it parzially and dry fire? Or is impossibile when i have close the bolt completely to shoot?

Thank you.
LukeP

For the Steyr yes, I'm not sure about the Morini.

[LukeP]

[
For the Steyr yes, I'm not sure about the Morini.

Thank you, this question came from my last match with izzy, when i have pumped the lever, put the pellet and close the bolt. I go up, i feel panic, i return down and i cannot dry fire, because when chamber is charged, you can only live fire with izzy.

Thank you,
LukeP.

[Steve Swartz]

You have 2 options with the Morini *electronic*

1. partially lift loading lever and dry fire (but you are looking at dorked up sight picture)

2. turn trigger off and dry fire (won't hear a "click" but otherwise feel is identical)

I use option 2. I actually use "electroless dry fire" as a 1st stage/2d stage sensitivity drill on a regular basis. Without the solenoid charged, you can actually feel the exact point where the contact is broken . . .

Steve Swartz

[LukeP]

Returning from the range, after 1st 2008 training session with izzy, there are a lot of folks and i I tried to fire with Steyr lp1 and Morini cm162mi, pardini k2s air.
Baikal: there is a lot of muzzle flip, heavy weight.
Steyr: sweet trigger (only dry fire twice), nice balance.
Pardini k2s: seems lighter than morini, point of balance is close to the trigger and the front sight seems dancing around a bit too much in my hands. Also in my hand it have a lot of muzzle flip, many more than izzy.
Morini mechanical: sweet trigger, in my hand there is zero vertical muzzle flip, very stable, much more pointability than pardini, when i became tired the gun is much less reactive; i can see clearly front sight, very nice.

I start thinking about steyr absorber, because morini reaction is near zero without absorber and with the plus of electronic trigger. Plus the minor price. Morini mechanical have a L grip: no wood touch my hands under the palm, seems electric model's grip is more thicker.

Definitely this seems to be a match between grip...

Never yet fired steyr lp10....

Best regards,
LukeP.

P.S. The day of the new gun is approaching. ;)

[gunnery]

Why not a matchguns mg1? You live in Italy, and its a Italyan brand.
And you can have a grip custom made on the gun from the factory.
I had a steyr lp10, sold it to relace it with a Mg1.
And do not regret it. Better grip, better trigger and more adjustable,
buth also more muzzle wiph and heavyer than the steyr.
Sorry in Dutch:
http://forum.weapons.be/showthread.php? ... hlight=mg1