arc of motion

[Guest]

How do you get a smaller arc of motion? I am in the 7 ring now but there are people that say they are holding in the 9 ring. I can see how this will make a big difference in score but how do you improve on it? I know if I am not looking at the dot there is a lot of movement and I am just thinking there is something else like that that makes a big difference.

[Dogchaser]

For me it was hours of standing in the house dry firing.

6-800 rounds per week of centerfire and tons of rimfire helped too.

[Richard H]

For starters you have to identify what is keeping you from obtaining a smaller group. It could be your grip inconsitancies, trigger control, stance, Natural point of aim, sight alignment, ect. Once you identify what's making your group larger then you can work on those elements.

[Fred Mannis]

An electronic trainer - RIKA, SCATT, Noptel - can be a big help in separating arc of motion issues from problems with trigger release, followthrough, NPA.

Lots of dry firing against a blank card as well as against a - or a | or a + or a small dot.

[Guest]

I am taking trigger control out of this discussion because even before I start squezing the trigger the dot is traveling to far in my opinion. If the dot stays in say, the 8 ring you have a much better chance of a ten ring shot then if you move all th6I1G5e way out to the 6 ring. I hope this makes since.

[Richard H]

I am taking trigger control out of this discussion because even before I start squezing the trigger the dot is traveling to far in my opinion. If the dot stays in say, the 8 ring you have a much better chance of a ten ring shot then if you move all th6I1G5e way out to the 6 ring. I hope this makes since.

Get yourself on someones electronic trainer the preceived motion is usually much larger than the actual motion. The dot is never going to be still no matter what you do. I was behind I beleive John Zurek (sp) at a finals, I thought I moved a lot, (most people that watch me shoot say I don't move at all), I couldn't beleive how much his pistol was moving yet he still shot good shoots.

[Fred Mannis]

I am taking trigger control out of this discussion because even before I start squezing the trigger the dot is traveling to far in my opinion. If the dot stays in say, the 8 ring you have a much better chance of a ten ring shot then if you move all th6I1G5e way out to the 6 ring. I hope this makes since.

Training to reduce motion (wobble) takes time. So, whatever the motion is at a particular day/week, you need to accept it and work at perfecting trigger, front sight focus and alignment, and follow through.

BTW, the holding exercises I mentioned above (w/o dry firing) are mainly for reducing motion.

[2650 Plus]

I'm willing to acknoledge Brain Zins comment that to hold without applying trigger presure is to pratice holding without firing. There is no point in a perfect hold if you cannot fire the shot during the period of best stillness. As others have said, dry fire, spend more time on the range, learn more about what a perfect shot feels like and how one appears to you when you have a sucessful excution. Concentrate your efforts on repeating the perfect shot. Try to forget the bad executions and remember the best ones.Good Shooting bill Horton

[jackh]

I also acknowledge that it is unwise to hold and risk training to not pull the trigger. But there is in my opinion a time for holding drills. More exactly I should say holding lessons. Get into a learning mode and mind set where you have "hold" as your lesson goal. Learning how to learn is something you have to learn. :)

Keep the hold cycles short. Remember that most of your hold is established before you raise and settle. Know that your wrist plays a very important role. as does your erect body. As does your abdominal stability. as does the amount of air in lungs. .... Lots to learn.

Rica devices are fine I suppose. But they don't give you any how to's, only results.

[2650 Plus]

Jack, I totally agree with your analisis of the electronic training devices in that they dont tell you how to shoot the perfect shot . mostly they just tell you what you did wrong. I'm sure you remember the the circle of possible excuses that at one time seemed to be posted in every range in the country. I truly despised that thing. The Army even bought a training device that was supposed to teach a soldier how to properly fire his rifle. The thing was called a trainer and was set uo on the qualification ranges. It did exactly what you described. It told you every thing you were doing wrong and nothing about how to shoot the shot. I tried to get the training command to put a coin slot on the thing and set it up in the lobby of the post theater. We could have made a lot of money even though shooting skills would not have improved. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[jackh]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that sight alignment is not the prime goal all the time. I submit that at a certain stage in a shooters progress, stability should be a higher goal. I further submit that alignment will be a quality within the stability of the hold. Does anyone ever stabilize the pistol in a misaligned manner? Further, poor stability will interfere with trigger control more than poor alignment.

Alignment concerns the sights only. Stability concerns the gun in hand. Aim area is what you move the stable gun to as you press the trigger.

[Richard H]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that sight alignment is not the prime goal all the time. I submit that at a certain stage in a shooters progress, stability should be a higher goal. I further submit that alignment will be a quality within the stability of the hold. Does anyone ever stabilize the pistol in a misaligned manner? Further, poor stability will interfere with trigger control more than poor alignment.

Alignment concerns the sights only. Stability concerns the gun in hand. Aim area is what you move the stable gun to as you press the trigger.

Angular errors from sight mis alignment will always be great than stability errors. So sight alignment should always be paramount, once you can do that then you work on stability while maintaining alignment.

[Richard H]

Jack, I totally agree with your analisis of the electronic training devices in that they dont tell you how to shoot the perfect shot . mostly they just tell you what you did wrong. I'm sure you remember the the circle of possible excuses that at one time seemed to be posted in every range in the country. I truly despised that thing. The Army even bought a training device that was supposed to teach a soldier how to properly fire his rifle. The thing was called a trainer and was set uo on the qualification ranges. It did exactly what you described. It told you every thing you were doing wrong and nothing about how to shoot the shot. I tried to get the training command to put a coin slot on the thing and set it up in the lobby of the post theater. We could have made a lot of money even though shooting skills would not have improved. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Actually it tells you what you're doing right as much as what you are doing wrong. It also allows a coach to ACTUALLY see what a shooter is doing, not just what the shooter says they are doing, it lays a lot of things bare for the coach to see.

I have yet to see anyone say that an electronic trainer will make you shoot better. Nothing can tell you or make you shoot better, that is up to you so if you're searching for a magic, device, gun, ammo, stance, glasses, ect you're wasting your time. What they are is a tool that provides you with pretty accurate information of what is going on during the shot process, nothing more nothing less. Form there you or your coach have to decide what to do to make improvements, its not magic.

[jackh]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that sight alignment is not the prime goal all the time. I submit that at a certain stage in a shooters progress, stability should be a higher goal. I further submit that alignment will be a quality within the stability of the hold. Does anyone ever stabilize the pistol in a misaligned manner? Further, poor stability will interfere with trigger control more than poor alignment.

Alignment concerns the sights only. Stability concerns the gun in hand. Aim area is what you move the stable gun to as you press the trigger.

Angular errors from sight mis alignment will always be great than stability errors. So sight alignment should always be paramount, once you can do that then you work on stability while maintaining alignment.

Definition of stability, to me, = rock solid hold. Locked wrist. Within that the sights ARE aligned. It is the ONE thing that covers the most behaviors I can figure to do the shot.

Of course my sights are aligned when I make them stable as well as the whole gun in my gripping hand, my arm and shoulder as well. My mind has no other thing to worry about except maintain that stability, and move to my aim area while triggering. I.e. --Nothing to fix, minimum behaviors involved. Just a rock solid hold, then trigger and move to center per Zins. And mostly, a cleaner mind to direct the trigger.

[2650 Plus]

Jack, you got me there. The last thing I want is my concious mental processes to interfer with the trigger manulipulation. I reserve all concious thoughts to only be involved in sight allighment until after the shot breaks. The post above yours in this set of ideas seems pretty close to my firing sequence. I havent spent time with Zins and have to admit that I dont quite understand the idea of pulling the sights into allignment with the trigger finger. Maybe its closer to starting the finger mooving then perfecting sight alignmert before the pistol fires, but I also admit that is only a wild guess. Any way could you explain a bit further about how you do it. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[jackh]

Jack, you got me there. The last thing I want is my concious mental processes to interfer with the trigger manulipulation. I reserve all concious thoughts to only be involved in sight allighment until after the shot breaks. The post above yours in this set of ideas seems pretty close to my firing sequence. I havent spent time with Zins and have to admit that I dont quite understand the idea of pulling the sights into allignment with the trigger finger. Maybe its closer to starting the finger mooving then perfecting sight alignmert before the pistol fires, but I also admit that is only a wild guess. Any way could you explain a bit further about how you do it. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill, my interpretation of Zins is the trigger finger does Not pull the sights into alignment. The sights are already aligned and stable, maybe sitting just outside the aim area in as rock solid a hold as possible. How to actually achieve the stable (and aligned) hold never gets much dialog. I am using 'stability' to describe the whole condition that I have developed by efficient setup, preparation, and maintenance, all via my stance, position and grip. Then...all that is dispensed with...

Then the trigger pull starts and the 'sight picture' completes. I believe Zins Northpole analogy describes the same thing.

[2650 Plus]

I've got it Jack, Thanks, Good Shootng Bill Horton