In another thread Col Swartz asked
["]Aside to Fred: Following the principles above, how would you assess "quality of hold?" If your performance is not acceptable/improving with respect to "quality of hold" then by all means you should be focusing training efforts in this area. The disagreement in this forum on training for hold (since I am always in the middle of the controversy, I feel qualified to comment on it) is not about whether or not training for a better hold is USEFUL but is about how much performance is ACCEPTABLE or DESIRED. And how you define the "Proper Behavior" and what constitutes ""Improvement." The point is, you don't need a "9 ring hold" (let alone a "ten ring hold") in order to shoot a ten. And the definition even of "A Tighter Hold" can vary, as can the definition of "Improvement." What you need is a "sufficiently" settled (predictable) hold that allows you to shoot a ten. Very different things. Indeed, many "hold training exercises" actually can HARM your ability to reliably release a ten.
What constitutes "Desireable Behavior" with respect to the technique element "Hold?" And what constitutes "Better" with respect to that behavior?
Now *there's* an intersting (and useful) conversation . . .[/"]
It came to me; Just what is the definition of hold amongst the masses?
I have always considered "hold" to be the combination of steadiness and wobble. Wobble being movement relative to the target line. Steadiness being relative to the firing line. In other words; Me, my gun, and eye, hold all aligned and steady on the firing line, before, during and after the fall of the hammer. And when we orient to the target we detect wobble, which has been called relatively unimportant.
What say you?
"Hold" - a borrowed topic
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
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As you correctly say, hold is the combination of a number of factors. The relative importance of those factors will vary from person to person.
Using your definitions, someone who is extremely steady could have a lot of wobble. He/she could therefore have the same resulting hold as someone who is unsteady but has little wobble.
The only thing that really matters is the resulting hold, which I would describe (not define) as the area on the target covered by a shot released at any point during the period over which the hold is measured.
You then need to decide when the hold is measured. I would suggest that anything over about half a second before the shot is released is largely irrelevant. Why half a second? Because in most people that's going to be between 1 and 2 times their reaction time.
Using your definitions, someone who is extremely steady could have a lot of wobble. He/she could therefore have the same resulting hold as someone who is unsteady but has little wobble.
The only thing that really matters is the resulting hold, which I would describe (not define) as the area on the target covered by a shot released at any point during the period over which the hold is measured.
You then need to decide when the hold is measured. I would suggest that anything over about half a second before the shot is released is largely irrelevant. Why half a second? Because in most people that's going to be between 1 and 2 times their reaction time.
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Using your description of hold, I would add that the rate at which the hold area decreases (some would call this 'settle time') is also a factor. As well as the consistency of this decrease. Some argue that the consistency of the rate of decrease is more important than the hold area itself. Obviously a very complex relationship. For myself, I have found that the smaller my perceived wobble/hold area, the better my trigger release (less disturbance to sight alignment).David Levene wrote:As you correctly say, hold is the combination of a number of factors. The relative importance of those factors will vary from person to person.
Using your definitions, someone who is extremely steady could have a lot of wobble. He/she could therefore have the same resulting hold as someone who is unsteady but has little wobble.
The only thing that really matters is the resulting hold, which I would describe (not define) as the area on the target covered by a shot released at any point during the period over which the hold is measured.
You then need to decide when the hold is measured. I would suggest that anything over about half a second before the shot is released is largely irrelevant. Why half a second? Because in most people that's going to be between 1 and 2 times their reaction time.
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Steve Swartz
What we need to work on is a smooth, slow wobble that settles near the center of the ten ring and pauses there momentarily as the shot breaks.
In order to achieve that, the behaviors we need to develop are, in order of priority:
1. Predictability of movement ("smoothness")
2. Speed of movement
3. Change in distance from desired aim point
4. Average distance from desired aim point
1, 2 measured between initial contact with desired aim area (first nick of ten ring) to release of shot
3, 4 measured during last 500 ms prior to shot release
1: desire 0 rate of change in the velocity of track across target over time
2: slower is better
3: either negative or positive values; 0 is desired
4: 0 is desired
Note only 4 is related to "size of wobble" and evfen that only counts during the time between commanding the release of the shot and when it is released.
So what we need to work on is a smooth, slow wobble that settles near the center of the ten ring and pauses there momentarily as the shot breaks.
Steve Swartz
In order to achieve that, the behaviors we need to develop are, in order of priority:
1. Predictability of movement ("smoothness")
2. Speed of movement
3. Change in distance from desired aim point
4. Average distance from desired aim point
1, 2 measured between initial contact with desired aim area (first nick of ten ring) to release of shot
3, 4 measured during last 500 ms prior to shot release
1: desire 0 rate of change in the velocity of track across target over time
2: slower is better
3: either negative or positive values; 0 is desired
4: 0 is desired
Note only 4 is related to "size of wobble" and evfen that only counts during the time between commanding the release of the shot and when it is released.
So what we need to work on is a smooth, slow wobble that settles near the center of the ten ring and pauses there momentarily as the shot breaks.
Steve Swartz
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
["]So what we need to work on is a smooth, slow wobble that settles near the center of the ten ring and pauses there momentarily as the shot breaks. [/"]
So what tips are there that might help us on the way to the above?
Me, my gun, and eye are trying initiating our grip more from the rear of our palm, and the wrist. Seems to make a better interface between gun and hand for a real stable alignment at the sights, and also less wobble at the target. And provide a very firm wrist. I have found lately some wrist muscles I didn't know I had.
So what tips are there that might help us on the way to the above?
Me, my gun, and eye are trying initiating our grip more from the rear of our palm, and the wrist. Seems to make a better interface between gun and hand for a real stable alignment at the sights, and also less wobble at the target. And provide a very firm wrist. I have found lately some wrist muscles I didn't know I had.
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Fred
Steve,Steve Swartz wrote:
1. Predictability of movement ("smoothness")
1, 2 measured between initial contact with desired aim area (first nick of ten ring) to release of shot
1: desire 0 rate of change in the velocity of track across target over time
So what we need to work on is a smooth, slow wobble that settles near the center of the ten ring and pauses there momentarily as the shot breaks.
The excerpt I have highlighted would seem to contradict the previous excerpts about smoothness and 0 rate of change, would it not?
Confused,
FredB
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Steve Swartz
"And pauses theree momentarily" is what we perceive; of course the gun will still be moving . . . if it is moving slowly, and the XY variance "tightens" as the shot breaks, it will look to your eye as if the gun paused (it didn't, as the Rika will show).
As to measuring the 4 behaviors without Rika
This is difficult- impossible if you aren't paying very close, intense attention to perfecting the alignment of the sights and laser-beam front sight focus. It's hard even with that level of focus . . . but can be learned.
1. Predictability of movement ("smoothness")
If you are focusing intently on the locked sight alignment, and are performing alignment exercises against a uniformly patterned surface (I like an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper with "brick" pattern) you can see if the movement is smooth or jerky. you want corrections back to NPA and discusrions away from NPA to be smooth.
2. Speed of movement
See above; and sl-o-o-o-ow
3. Change in distance from desired aim point
Hold exerxcises against shapes (crosses, triangles, points, etc) see above we are now noticing distance of discursions away from desired
4. Average distance from desired aim point
Add dry firing to the above exercise and we would like our focus to intensify as we increase trigger pressure, and would like to see the "pause" occur as the shot breaks. Ed Hall and I have discussed back and forth as to whether this is an illusion from concentrating so intently (temporal distortion) but the Rika picks it up . . . the movement indicators "pile up" on each other . . . however, you can see it with your own eyes- or not- depending again on whether or not you are looking for it.
Anyhow gotta run but yes there are additional drills to help you improve 1-4 certainly, and the drills can be performed with/without Rika. Doing without Rika is harder . . . but also more useful, as the USAS and ISSF don't allow Rika at the match!
Steve
1, 2 measured between initial contact with desired aim area (first nick of ten ring) to release of shot
3, 4 measured during last 500 ms prior to shot release
1: desire 0 rate of change in the velocity of track across target over time
2: slower is better
3: either negative or positive values; 0 is desired
4: 0 is desired
As to measuring the 4 behaviors without Rika
This is difficult- impossible if you aren't paying very close, intense attention to perfecting the alignment of the sights and laser-beam front sight focus. It's hard even with that level of focus . . . but can be learned.
1. Predictability of movement ("smoothness")
If you are focusing intently on the locked sight alignment, and are performing alignment exercises against a uniformly patterned surface (I like an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper with "brick" pattern) you can see if the movement is smooth or jerky. you want corrections back to NPA and discusrions away from NPA to be smooth.
2. Speed of movement
See above; and sl-o-o-o-ow
3. Change in distance from desired aim point
Hold exerxcises against shapes (crosses, triangles, points, etc) see above we are now noticing distance of discursions away from desired
4. Average distance from desired aim point
Add dry firing to the above exercise and we would like our focus to intensify as we increase trigger pressure, and would like to see the "pause" occur as the shot breaks. Ed Hall and I have discussed back and forth as to whether this is an illusion from concentrating so intently (temporal distortion) but the Rika picks it up . . . the movement indicators "pile up" on each other . . . however, you can see it with your own eyes- or not- depending again on whether or not you are looking for it.
Anyhow gotta run but yes there are additional drills to help you improve 1-4 certainly, and the drills can be performed with/without Rika. Doing without Rika is harder . . . but also more useful, as the USAS and ISSF don't allow Rika at the match!
Steve
1, 2 measured between initial contact with desired aim area (first nick of ten ring) to release of shot
3, 4 measured during last 500 ms prior to shot release
1: desire 0 rate of change in the velocity of track across target over time
2: slower is better
3: either negative or positive values; 0 is desired
4: 0 is desired
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2650 Plus
Hold it still
In the shot sequence and presuming a nine ring hold , with NPA centered on the ten ring what percentage of time is the pistol pointed inside the ten ring and how long do the excursions into the nine ring last?. Is the percentage in the nine ring greater or less than the time in the ten? If my belief that a much greater percentage of time is spent in the ten ring than anywhere else is correct, would that not explain the occasional very high number of tens in a string better than the idea of a perfect trigger control that somehow computes the velocity of movement across the target and provides the correct ammount of leed to discharge the pistol at just the right moment? My highest scores have always came when I was applying a steadily incresing pressure to the trigger , [at least I thought I was] and concentrating vision and my total mental activity to perfecting sight allignment.Awareness of the target was minimal as was any awareness of the trigger movement .Good Shooting Bill Horton
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Steve Swartz
Bill:
If your wobble were uniformly distributed across the face of the target, you would see more 9s than tens (even assuming very, very tight "9 ring hold"). Thank goodness it isn't- we have a brain and we are trying to put the aligned sights back into the ten ring all the time. So even for a typical 8 ring hold, we spend maybe (Rika backs this up) 20% in the 8, 50% in the 9, and approaching 30% in the ten. That's for shooting a 570 +. If it were totally random, the score would be closer to 550 than 570+.
So a couple of things could be happening (this is where one's personal "belief system" comes into play):
1) You think about focusing on increasing trigger pressure ("keep the trigger moving") and your brain knows (from many many shots over and over) when the shot break is imminent- and steers the sights at the last 200-400 ms toward the center of the target. This is what I believe Ed Hall currently (or at least used to) ascribes to.
Or
2) You focus on the front sight intently, and work at keeping perfect alignment. As the sights move toward the center of the target, your brain commands increasing pressure on the trigger in the last 200-400 ms or so as the aligned sights move toward the perfect shot. This is what I see with my own eyes.
I figure it's a "To-may-to/To-mah-to" discussion. Either way, (back to topic) you don't need to hold still in the ten ring to shoot a ten.
What say the world-class coaches?
Steve
If your wobble were uniformly distributed across the face of the target, you would see more 9s than tens (even assuming very, very tight "9 ring hold"). Thank goodness it isn't- we have a brain and we are trying to put the aligned sights back into the ten ring all the time. So even for a typical 8 ring hold, we spend maybe (Rika backs this up) 20% in the 8, 50% in the 9, and approaching 30% in the ten. That's for shooting a 570 +. If it were totally random, the score would be closer to 550 than 570+.
So a couple of things could be happening (this is where one's personal "belief system" comes into play):
1) You think about focusing on increasing trigger pressure ("keep the trigger moving") and your brain knows (from many many shots over and over) when the shot break is imminent- and steers the sights at the last 200-400 ms toward the center of the target. This is what I believe Ed Hall currently (or at least used to) ascribes to.
Or
2) You focus on the front sight intently, and work at keeping perfect alignment. As the sights move toward the center of the target, your brain commands increasing pressure on the trigger in the last 200-400 ms or so as the aligned sights move toward the perfect shot. This is what I see with my own eyes.
I figure it's a "To-may-to/To-mah-to" discussion. Either way, (back to topic) you don't need to hold still in the ten ring to shoot a ten.
What say the world-class coaches?
Steve
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Ed Hall
I see I'm being referenced here and there. My ego likes that - thanks guys! Let me add in some current "horse's mouth" information. (Does anyone remember Mr. Ed?)
The best results for me lately have held the following characteristics:
1. the trigger has been a determined effort with absolutely no doubt of success
2. my imagery beforehand has been focused on the very center of the bull
- whatever is in the center of the target, be it writing such as "10," "X" or an inner ring seems to bring more success than imagining hits in the ten
3. acute focus on the sighting system
4. acceptance that the trigger operation trumps the sight picture
5. total acceptance of movement with no conscious correction of anything
- since this thread is on "hold" let's explore this item further
Although the hold doesn't have to be static, the steadier it is, the more acceptable it is to our conscious to go ahead and fire. The important part is to accept the hold as it is and don't keep fixing it. Let it drift around and confidently operate the trigger. If you can do this, your subconscious will take care of the rest, as long as it knows what you want.
The pause spoken of earlier in the thread is an optical illusion brought on by the firing of the gun, although there should be a settling, where the movement becomes minimum within the aiming area.
After some training, you will notice times when it seemed the sights aligned exactly on center just as the shot broke. Revel in these instances. You let yourself succeed.
What is the difference between training and competition? Confidence! If there is any doubt, it is manifested in hesitation, brought on by an overcritical conscious.
One last thing to consider: We are highly acute in finding things to be critical of. That includes our perception of the sight alignment/picture. Our hold is better than our perception of it, because we look at extremes. When we say our sights are moving all the way out to ___, what we probably see is the outer edges reaching ___. If we reevaluate, where is the center of the sighting system?
As always, all comments are welcome...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
The best results for me lately have held the following characteristics:
1. the trigger has been a determined effort with absolutely no doubt of success
2. my imagery beforehand has been focused on the very center of the bull
- whatever is in the center of the target, be it writing such as "10," "X" or an inner ring seems to bring more success than imagining hits in the ten
3. acute focus on the sighting system
4. acceptance that the trigger operation trumps the sight picture
5. total acceptance of movement with no conscious correction of anything
- since this thread is on "hold" let's explore this item further
Although the hold doesn't have to be static, the steadier it is, the more acceptable it is to our conscious to go ahead and fire. The important part is to accept the hold as it is and don't keep fixing it. Let it drift around and confidently operate the trigger. If you can do this, your subconscious will take care of the rest, as long as it knows what you want.
The pause spoken of earlier in the thread is an optical illusion brought on by the firing of the gun, although there should be a settling, where the movement becomes minimum within the aiming area.
After some training, you will notice times when it seemed the sights aligned exactly on center just as the shot broke. Revel in these instances. You let yourself succeed.
What is the difference between training and competition? Confidence! If there is any doubt, it is manifested in hesitation, brought on by an overcritical conscious.
One last thing to consider: We are highly acute in finding things to be critical of. That includes our perception of the sight alignment/picture. Our hold is better than our perception of it, because we look at extremes. When we say our sights are moving all the way out to ___, what we probably see is the outer edges reaching ___. If we reevaluate, where is the center of the sighting system?
As always, all comments are welcome...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
[quote="Ed Hall"]I see I'm being referenced here ...... (Does anyone remember Mr. Ed?).......[/quote]
Of course, of course we remember Mr Ed!
"A horse is a horse of course, of course. And no-one can talk to a horse of course - that is of course unless the horse is the famous Mister Ed. Go right to the source and ask the horse - he'll give you the answer that you endorse. He's always on a standing course - talk to Mister Ed!"
:)
So does that make Steve, Wilbur Post?
Of course, of course we remember Mr Ed!
"A horse is a horse of course, of course. And no-one can talk to a horse of course - that is of course unless the horse is the famous Mister Ed. Go right to the source and ask the horse - he'll give you the answer that you endorse. He's always on a standing course - talk to Mister Ed!"
:)
So does that make Steve, Wilbur Post?
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Ed Hall
Thanks for filling in the song, jackh.
I'm not sure if Steve would fit in as Wiiiiillllber, or not. Whinnie, whinnie, whinnie, whinnie, whinnie...stomp, stomp, stomp...
Is your "BBCode" turned on? Your quote looks right, but isn't being displayed as it should. I have:
HTML is OFF
BBCode is ON
Smilies are OFF
for my options.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
I'm not sure if Steve would fit in as Wiiiiillllber, or not. Whinnie, whinnie, whinnie, whinnie, whinnie...stomp, stomp, stomp...
Is your "BBCode" turned on? Your quote looks right, but isn't being displayed as it should. I have:
HTML is OFF
BBCode is ON
Smilies are OFF
for my options.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things