Just getting back into shooting at a competetive level after a long lay off.
Currently averaging 575 for a 60 shot English match using an old club rifle and cheap ammo. This I figure is about the limit of the me/rifle/ammo combo, so have decided to spend seriously on a new rifle.
Top choice is a new Anschutz 2013/690 barrel and action, fitted to a 2213 alu stock with black pro-grip pistol grip, forend and cheek pads replacing the rather unappealing blue timberwork. Been offered a good package including a 7020/20 rear sight which makes financial sense over my preferred Centra option. Also considered the Mec project stock, but cannot see the value and the extra cost over the 2213.
Always having been an Anschutz user, I have to say I never really considered seriously the offerings from Walther or Feinwerkbau even though both are cheaper - is this a mistake?
New .22 Free rifle
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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EdR
Robert: If you are in the US I'd stay with Anschutz for smallbore. I love FWB. Got 4 P70's, messed with their smallbore rifles and they are great too. Walther SB seems good too. Both FWB and Walther are very poorly represented in the states though in almost every way. With Anschutz you have lots of options on parts, service, etc.
Thanks for the input guys.
I am in Germany and France 50/50 - spares for all are obviously not a problem.
Resale values for Anschutz are better, but as I am not looking to sell, not really important. Purchase price for Anschutz is higher.
After a wooden stocked 1813 and match 54, all the new offerings feel different, but good both in the hand and the shoulder - I could not distinguish between them without some range time and hours logged, which is not possible.
The serious shooters I know are into air rifle, here the current Walthers and FWB's are top choice, but no-one is really into smallbore at a high level so good advice is a bit thin.....
I guess its down to the MEC project stock or the tweaked 2213 (at Euro 200 cheaper). Unfortunately it seems difficult to lay my hands on a MEC to try it - anyone out there used one?
I am in Germany and France 50/50 - spares for all are obviously not a problem.
Resale values for Anschutz are better, but as I am not looking to sell, not really important. Purchase price for Anschutz is higher.
After a wooden stocked 1813 and match 54, all the new offerings feel different, but good both in the hand and the shoulder - I could not distinguish between them without some range time and hours logged, which is not possible.
The serious shooters I know are into air rifle, here the current Walthers and FWB's are top choice, but no-one is really into smallbore at a high level so good advice is a bit thin.....
I guess its down to the MEC project stock or the tweaked 2213 (at Euro 200 cheaper). Unfortunately it seems difficult to lay my hands on a MEC to try it - anyone out there used one?
I must confess that I assumed that you were in the US so with the $/£ exchange as it is I didn't mention this before. Have you considered the HPS System Gemini Stock?:I am in Germany and France 50/50 - spares for all are obviously not a problem.
http://www.hps-tr.com/
I bought one of their butt plates many years ago and consider it the most effective single piece of shooting equipment I have purchased in over 40 years. I subsequently bought a stock and think that it is magic! I have heard that they have recently completed a couple of orders with Bleiker actions.
If you want something special, worth thinking about. Gemini stock and the action and barrel of your choice.
Rutty
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Max Factor
Rutty wrote:I must confess that I assumed that you were in the US so with the $/£ exchange as it is I didn't mention this before. Have you considered the HPS System Gemini Stock?:I am in Germany and France 50/50 - spares for all are obviously not a problem.
http://www.hps-tr.com/
I bought one of their butt plates many years ago and consider it the most effective single piece of shooting equipment I have purchased in over 40 years. I subsequently bought a stock and think that it is magic! I have heard that they have recently completed a couple of orders with Bleiker actions.
If you want something special, worth thinking about. Gemini stock and the action and barrel of your choice.
Rutty
Cheers Rutty.Rutty wrote:I must confess that I assumed that you were in the US so with the $/£ exchange as it is I didn't mention this before. Have you considered the HPS System Gemini Stock?:I am in Germany and France 50/50 - spares for all are obviously not a problem.
http://www.hps-tr.com/
I bought one of their butt plates many years ago and consider it the most effective single piece of shooting equipment I have purchased in over 40 years. I subsequently bought a stock and think that it is magic! I have heard that they have recently completed a couple of orders with Bleiker actions.
If you want something special, worth thinking about. Gemini stock and the action and barrel of your choice.
Rutty
I only ever heard about HPS in the context of fullbore - like Keppler.
I looked at the link to their smallbore offering, the price comes out at 2200 Euros, as opposed to MEC at 1550 and customised Anschutz at 1380.
Do you think 50% over an Anschutz alu stock is worth following up?
Hi Robert,I only ever heard about HPS in the context of fullbore - like Keppler.
I looked at the link to their smallbore offering, the price comes out at 2200 Euros, as opposed to MEC at 1550 and customised Anschutz at 1380.
Do you think 50% over an Anschutz alu stock is worth following up?
HPS started out producing smallbore stocks and expanded into fullbore. Is the premium worth it? Well only you can be the judge of that and the only way to do so is to see one and decide. Personally I think that they are of a quality that sets them apart but the bottom line is would you like shooting with it?
Rutty
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
New prone guns
I am going to come out of left field here, but hear me out...
And these opinions are regarding prone guns. Many more adjustments are necessary for 3-P shooting.
I was in the same position a year ago - stopped prone shooting in 1992. Wanted to start again in 2006-2007. Figured my 1985 vintage 1813 Anschutz (that set 8 national records) was due for retirement. So I bought the new top of the line Anschutz square action with the blue aluminum stock.
Here is my personal observation on the Anschutz, and also the current trend on stocks that is happening right now.
1) The Anschutz quality has not changed. Top quality stuff. You will not be disappointed.
2) Beautiful AL stock with all the adjustments anybody could want.
3) And I want virtually NONE of the Adjustments! The adjustable stock is the biggest problem I see with the gun.....
Let me explain: Personal philosophy: When something is designed to adjust, then it will have a tendency to self adjust, come loose, move, come apart, etc.... and not be as stiff and strong a non-adjustable part..
I think there is a bit of modern day techo-baloney mindset going on here. I think there is a bit too much of providing "features" and "options" and "adjustments" on the new breed of guns as a way of attracting buyers. Kind of like all the features people think they need when buying the latest electronics - or if they don't know anything about the purchase, and think "more features must be a better product" Anybody reset the clock on the VCR lately???
When was the last time you saw a top level prone-only shooter make an adjustment to their rifle? Maybe to change sights from 50 to 100 yards, or put on a scope, but THAT IS IT! So why buy an adjustable gun, just so you can make a few adjustments to set it up, and then never need the adjustments again? And then have to put up with the problems of a flimsy gun the rest of your shooting career?
My Anschutz stock feels like a tinker toy. When I shoot prone, I actually hold on to the rifle, solid but relaxed grip and all. I would estimate that the pressure of the buttplate to my shoulder is about 20 pounds. That is my position. Very solid. When shooting the Anschutz AL stock I have the sensation that the Anschutz stock is flexing in my hold (and I DO NOT) think it is only just in my mind.
The butt plate moves a bit, the hand grip moves a LOT, the cheekpiece hardware flexes A LOT, etc. I am constantly having to tighten clamping screws on parts that are slipping. Think moving gun parts are helping your shooting consistency??
You think I am some kind of animal with my rifle, choking it to death? Well, I am 6'2" 240 lbs, but I was also that 20 years ago. And 20 years ago choking the gun to death I set national records with an 1813 wood stock gun. So I am no beginner and I don't think it is just me being abusive to the gun.
Remember the good old days of a stock being a solid slab of wood, with only adjustments being handstop, maybe butt plate, and the high-falutin' folks had adjustable cheekpieces? Nothing more is needed in prone, after some initial stock fitting to you.
Keep it simple wins matches.
Any of you parents out there ever see your kids constantly fiddling with their guns? Forever wanting more (expensive) accessories??
My 1813 anschutz stock always served me well, but I still had 2 gripes:
1) The buttplate/hook, while much stiffer than the current AL stock, still moved a bit.
2) the pistol grip was WAY too small for me. Remember my size. I never felt like I had a good grip on the gun. It always felt like I was holding it with the tips of my fingers.
My solution: Taking the new square action and building a wood stock that fits me. Yes, a lot more work sanding and finishing, but that is the way it was done in years past.
Did you ever notice that the top prone shooters usually had the ugliest guns on the line?????
Jeff
And these opinions are regarding prone guns. Many more adjustments are necessary for 3-P shooting.
I was in the same position a year ago - stopped prone shooting in 1992. Wanted to start again in 2006-2007. Figured my 1985 vintage 1813 Anschutz (that set 8 national records) was due for retirement. So I bought the new top of the line Anschutz square action with the blue aluminum stock.
Here is my personal observation on the Anschutz, and also the current trend on stocks that is happening right now.
1) The Anschutz quality has not changed. Top quality stuff. You will not be disappointed.
2) Beautiful AL stock with all the adjustments anybody could want.
3) And I want virtually NONE of the Adjustments! The adjustable stock is the biggest problem I see with the gun.....
Let me explain: Personal philosophy: When something is designed to adjust, then it will have a tendency to self adjust, come loose, move, come apart, etc.... and not be as stiff and strong a non-adjustable part..
I think there is a bit of modern day techo-baloney mindset going on here. I think there is a bit too much of providing "features" and "options" and "adjustments" on the new breed of guns as a way of attracting buyers. Kind of like all the features people think they need when buying the latest electronics - or if they don't know anything about the purchase, and think "more features must be a better product" Anybody reset the clock on the VCR lately???
When was the last time you saw a top level prone-only shooter make an adjustment to their rifle? Maybe to change sights from 50 to 100 yards, or put on a scope, but THAT IS IT! So why buy an adjustable gun, just so you can make a few adjustments to set it up, and then never need the adjustments again? And then have to put up with the problems of a flimsy gun the rest of your shooting career?
My Anschutz stock feels like a tinker toy. When I shoot prone, I actually hold on to the rifle, solid but relaxed grip and all. I would estimate that the pressure of the buttplate to my shoulder is about 20 pounds. That is my position. Very solid. When shooting the Anschutz AL stock I have the sensation that the Anschutz stock is flexing in my hold (and I DO NOT) think it is only just in my mind.
The butt plate moves a bit, the hand grip moves a LOT, the cheekpiece hardware flexes A LOT, etc. I am constantly having to tighten clamping screws on parts that are slipping. Think moving gun parts are helping your shooting consistency??
You think I am some kind of animal with my rifle, choking it to death? Well, I am 6'2" 240 lbs, but I was also that 20 years ago. And 20 years ago choking the gun to death I set national records with an 1813 wood stock gun. So I am no beginner and I don't think it is just me being abusive to the gun.
Remember the good old days of a stock being a solid slab of wood, with only adjustments being handstop, maybe butt plate, and the high-falutin' folks had adjustable cheekpieces? Nothing more is needed in prone, after some initial stock fitting to you.
Keep it simple wins matches.
Any of you parents out there ever see your kids constantly fiddling with their guns? Forever wanting more (expensive) accessories??
My 1813 anschutz stock always served me well, but I still had 2 gripes:
1) The buttplate/hook, while much stiffer than the current AL stock, still moved a bit.
2) the pistol grip was WAY too small for me. Remember my size. I never felt like I had a good grip on the gun. It always felt like I was holding it with the tips of my fingers.
My solution: Taking the new square action and building a wood stock that fits me. Yes, a lot more work sanding and finishing, but that is the way it was done in years past.
Did you ever notice that the top prone shooters usually had the ugliest guns on the line?????
Jeff
I do agree with Jeff to an extent, in that yes, the majority of the adjustments on these guns really aren't needed. Heck, Matt Emmons, who I regard as the best smallbore shooter in the world, does his business with an older wood stocked 2013.
From my personal experience, I do feel stocks have come a long way in regards to ergonomics. For larger shooters, there may not be a significant difference. But to a smaller shooter (I barely crack 5'7" with my shoes on) with some physical issues, the new guns with the narrower forearms and little adjustments can keep you comfortable enough to not be in substantial pain after a long prone or 3p match.
I personally don't think that the MEC or Gemini stocks are worth the price over the Anschutz pieces. Yes, they are very high quality pieces, but coming from a welding and engineering background, the Anschutz piece is a pretty sound casting, and the only real advantage you'd have over its billet counterparts would come from the buttplate, which is interchangable.
My biggest gripe about the aluminum stocks in general was the balance. In my collegiate shooting days I shot a 1913 with a HEAVY Lilja 21" barrel in an Anschutz aluminum stock. It was incredibly nose heavy. So much in fact, that I had to plaster the back end of the rifle with stick on wheel weights to get the balance where I wanted it. Once I did though, it was the most beautifully balanced, accurate rifle I'd ever shot. I WILL note that the gun was glass bedded in lieu of the rubber pad, and I personally believe that was the way to go.
That's another problem with especially the Gemini butt plates. They're SO adjustable, and can be made to fit SO well, that they're virtually impossible to set up the same time, every time, in a reasonable amount of time during a match. Most of the people I see that have them fork over the cash to purchase three of them, allowing one for every position.
Box stock, I believe the Feinwerkbau is on par with any Anschutz offering. On the other hand, I don't think you'll be making a "bad" choice with the 2313. That stock is perfectly capable of doing everything you need it to do, it just comes down to personal preference. If I had to buy a new rifle, I would buy the same, only outfitted with the 660 barrel.
From my personal experience, I do feel stocks have come a long way in regards to ergonomics. For larger shooters, there may not be a significant difference. But to a smaller shooter (I barely crack 5'7" with my shoes on) with some physical issues, the new guns with the narrower forearms and little adjustments can keep you comfortable enough to not be in substantial pain after a long prone or 3p match.
I personally don't think that the MEC or Gemini stocks are worth the price over the Anschutz pieces. Yes, they are very high quality pieces, but coming from a welding and engineering background, the Anschutz piece is a pretty sound casting, and the only real advantage you'd have over its billet counterparts would come from the buttplate, which is interchangable.
My biggest gripe about the aluminum stocks in general was the balance. In my collegiate shooting days I shot a 1913 with a HEAVY Lilja 21" barrel in an Anschutz aluminum stock. It was incredibly nose heavy. So much in fact, that I had to plaster the back end of the rifle with stick on wheel weights to get the balance where I wanted it. Once I did though, it was the most beautifully balanced, accurate rifle I'd ever shot. I WILL note that the gun was glass bedded in lieu of the rubber pad, and I personally believe that was the way to go.
That's another problem with especially the Gemini butt plates. They're SO adjustable, and can be made to fit SO well, that they're virtually impossible to set up the same time, every time, in a reasonable amount of time during a match. Most of the people I see that have them fork over the cash to purchase three of them, allowing one for every position.
Box stock, I believe the Feinwerkbau is on par with any Anschutz offering. On the other hand, I don't think you'll be making a "bad" choice with the 2313. That stock is perfectly capable of doing everything you need it to do, it just comes down to personal preference. If I had to buy a new rifle, I would buy the same, only outfitted with the 660 barrel.
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enricovolante
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:15 am
- Location: Switzerland
Hello everybody,
This is really a nice and interesting topic since I'm thinking of getting a small-bore rifle.
I actually own a FWB 700 Alu and I definitively agree that too many regulations are misleading especially in beginners. I recently purchased a good book (air rifle shooting) and I found a lot of tips in it regarding regulation. One of the "MUST" is to not offset anything away from the barrel parallel. If you really think about it is not difficult to understand that any applied force not in direction of the barrel may cause a side effect.
If this principle is correct I therefore do not understand why many top producers allow such modification.
In the past when only wooden stocks were available there were only few settings for everyone, I think life was easier, but that's just a beginner thought.
Now, coming back to the topic I'd like to start the 50 mt 3 position and I really have no idea what to choose.
The only certain think I know is that stock length as well as sights and cheek piece has to be varied while shooting from one position to another.
The question is simple, which rifle is the easiest and the faster to set-up which swapping from one position to another without using a caliper every time?
Regards from Switzerland!
This is really a nice and interesting topic since I'm thinking of getting a small-bore rifle.
I actually own a FWB 700 Alu and I definitively agree that too many regulations are misleading especially in beginners. I recently purchased a good book (air rifle shooting) and I found a lot of tips in it regarding regulation. One of the "MUST" is to not offset anything away from the barrel parallel. If you really think about it is not difficult to understand that any applied force not in direction of the barrel may cause a side effect.
If this principle is correct I therefore do not understand why many top producers allow such modification.
In the past when only wooden stocks were available there were only few settings for everyone, I think life was easier, but that's just a beginner thought.
Now, coming back to the topic I'd like to start the 50 mt 3 position and I really have no idea what to choose.
The only certain think I know is that stock length as well as sights and cheek piece has to be varied while shooting from one position to another.
The question is simple, which rifle is the easiest and the faster to set-up which swapping from one position to another without using a caliper every time?
Regards from Switzerland!
The adjustments now on the new wood stock and aluminum stock Anschutz rifles are virtually the same, with the exception that the aluminum stock can have the grip adjusted. They use identical buttplates and carrier assemblies, identical cheek piece adjustments, etc. So in regards to which of these is the easier/faster to set up, there's no real advantage of one over the other, assuming you use the stock hardware. The aftermarket stocks for certain take longer to repeat and adjust between matches.enricovolante wrote:Hello everybody,
This is really a nice and interesting topic since I'm thinking of getting a small-bore rifle.
I actually own a FWB 700 Alu and I definitively agree that too many regulations are misleading especially in beginners. I recently purchased a good book (air rifle shooting) and I found a lot of tips in it regarding regulation. One of the "MUST" is to not offset anything away from the barrel parallel. If you really think about it is not difficult to understand that any applied force not in direction of the barrel may cause a side effect.
If this principle is correct I therefore do not understand why many top producers allow such modification.
In the past when only wooden stocks were available there were only few settings for everyone, I think life was easier, but that's just a beginner thought.
Now, coming back to the topic I'd like to start the 50 mt 3 position and I really have no idea what to choose.
The only certain think I know is that stock length as well as sights and cheek piece has to be varied while shooting from one position to another.
The question is simple, which rifle is the easiest and the faster to set-up which swapping from one position to another without using a caliper every time?
Regards from Switzerland!
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B.T.Carstensen
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:15 pm
Actually Matt Emmons has been shooting a ANS ALU stock 2013 for over a year and a half and has been doing better then ever, he's winning matchs left and right.WarWagon wrote:I do agree with Jeff to an extent, in that yes, the majority of the adjustments on these guns really aren't needed. Heck, Matt Emmons, who I regard as the best smallbore shooter in the world, does his business with an older wood stocked 2013..
-Brian
I don't agree at all with the above statement that many of the adjustments are not needed or that the top shooters don't adjust their stocks. Of course you don't see them tweaking the rifles at world cups and such because they are set. Once set, a good shooter is not changing things in big ways but the adjustments allow the rifles to be fit to the shooter. This is the only real change in our hardware over the years and it has been for the better. Think you don't need them then why don't you shoot a 1962 free rifle. The alternative is to keep your own personal stock maker on staff.
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
Prone gun
I'm thinking some people have missed one of the core ideas of my statement about guns:
I am referring to PRONE ONLY guns.
That was the original thread question. Not that somebody wants to shoot prone, and maybe a little 3-P on the side.
And I still stand by my statements above.
And yes, it IS normal to have a gunsmith/stockmaker standing by. I don't know any master level shooters who don't have access to a gunsmith. Karl Kenyon was always my first choice, and built my gun in 1986.
Now that I mention that, I would be curious to know if there has ever been a national prone or 3-P championship won by an out of the box untouched gun from the manufacturer??? I guess gunsmiths might be a necessity, no?
Do you remember not too many years ago when Anschutz actually made a popular separate prone gun, the 1411, 1811, and the 1911? Have you noticed how many fiberglass stocks are patterned after them, for smallbore, highpower, heck, even for a Ruger 10/22!
I suspect many people bought the free rifle versions, and bought a prone stock to add later. Come to think of it, that is exactly what I did in 1985!
Today, I suspect the idea is to just buy a free rifle, and adjust it to whatever you need. OK, makes sense. Just the rifles are too flimsy for me.
And I would normally expect any shooter, such as Emmons, who shoots both prone and 3-P, to use one 3-P rifle only for everything, as opposed to a 3-P rifle and a second rifle for prone only.
Jeff
I am referring to PRONE ONLY guns.
That was the original thread question. Not that somebody wants to shoot prone, and maybe a little 3-P on the side.
And I still stand by my statements above.
And yes, it IS normal to have a gunsmith/stockmaker standing by. I don't know any master level shooters who don't have access to a gunsmith. Karl Kenyon was always my first choice, and built my gun in 1986.
Now that I mention that, I would be curious to know if there has ever been a national prone or 3-P championship won by an out of the box untouched gun from the manufacturer??? I guess gunsmiths might be a necessity, no?
Do you remember not too many years ago when Anschutz actually made a popular separate prone gun, the 1411, 1811, and the 1911? Have you noticed how many fiberglass stocks are patterned after them, for smallbore, highpower, heck, even for a Ruger 10/22!
I suspect many people bought the free rifle versions, and bought a prone stock to add later. Come to think of it, that is exactly what I did in 1985!
Today, I suspect the idea is to just buy a free rifle, and adjust it to whatever you need. OK, makes sense. Just the rifles are too flimsy for me.
And I would normally expect any shooter, such as Emmons, who shoots both prone and 3-P, to use one 3-P rifle only for everything, as opposed to a 3-P rifle and a second rifle for prone only.
Jeff