MG2 Troubles.. need some brainstorming

[Richard H]

What puzzles me is why you all waste time and effort with this pistol? Are you a bunch of masochists? :-) Dont give me that bull crap about that the MG2 is soo special and gives sooo much higher scores when it works. Why doesn't anyone in the World Cup use it if it is so damn good as you say it is?

Think of all the time you could have spent on training instead of doing this never ending beta testing for match guns.

Well people like you should thank your lucky stars that other people do spend there money and time with new pistols. If it wasn't for them you'd have no pistols to shoot. There has not been a new pistol designed that didn't have problems when it was released.

[Fred Mannis]

What puzzles me is why you all waste time and effort with this pistol? Are you a bunch of masochists? :-) Dont give me that bull crap about that the MG2 is soo special and gives sooo much higher scores when it works. Why doesn't anyone in the World Cup use it if it is so damn good as you say it is?

Think of all the time you could have spent on training instead of doing this never ending beta testing for match guns.

Well people like you should thank your lucky stars that other people do spend there money and time with new pistols. If it wasn't for them you'd have no pistols to shoot. There has not been a new pistol designed that didn't have problems when it was released.

You are correct. But I do not understand why firearm manufacturers do not do more in house testing. Yes it is expensive, but so is the cost of customer service and repairs, as well as the cost of poor product image. After all, the operating environment of a match pistol is pretty well defined, unlike the broad spectrum of customers, computers that will use, say, a new operating system.

[Richard H]

What puzzles me is why you all waste time and effort with this pistol? Are you a bunch of masochists? :-) Dont give me that bull crap about that the MG2 is soo special and gives sooo much higher scores when it works. Why doesn't anyone in the World Cup use it if it is so damn good as you say it is?

Think of all the time you could have spent on training instead of doing this never ending beta testing for match guns.

Well people like you should thank your lucky stars that other people do spend there money and time with new pistols. If it wasn't for them you'd have no pistols to shoot. There has not been a new pistol designed that didn't have problems when it was released.

You are correct. But I do not understand why firearm manufacturers do not do more in house testing. Yes it is expensive, but so is the cost of customer service and repairs, as well as the cost of poor product image. After all, the operating environment of a match pistol is pretty well defined, unlike the broad spectrum of customers, computers that will use, say, a new operating system.

A lot of you think there is lots of money to be made off target firearms, guess what there's not. Target shooting is a very small market, when you develop something new everyday is costing you money prior to releasing the product. There is no way they can test all the different pistol under all the different conditions that the shooters will put them under. Their in house testing is done on small special lot pistols not serial production. The serial production creates a whole new set of varibles, materials, tooling, processes, and others. Personally I'm surprised anyone actually takes on the development of a new pistol. Then to listen to everyone whine about things even though the manufactures are standing behind their products and supplying fixes. I could understand the whining if they put out a pistol and didn't fix it, then by all means but it seems to me MG has bent over backwards to remedy the problems with the pistol, if that isn't customer service I don't know what is.

Its difficult to spend a few million dollars to develop a new pistol and just sit there and pay interest on that investment for years and years (which is what you are talking about. The life blood of the business is cash flow, with out it you won't have anything. Now you look at the companies that are producing these new pistol, if MG didn't release their pistol what would they make money on, what else do they do to bring cash in? Walther is in better shape because the target market is a very small percentage of their business, they make most their money on selling military and law enforcement firearms, not on target guns. Besides sitting on these guns probably wouldn't have helped anyways as most of these problems are production problems which will not be found till you do serial production.

As to the other question "why don't you see them on the World Cup Circuit". This just demonstrates another lack of understanding of the sport at the top levels. For starters the pistol was released inside the quadranial (the four year period between Olympics), top shooters are not going to flock and change pistols in this period, they aren't like the vast number of club shooters who are looking to get the magic free points (that don't exist). I suspect as the bugs are ironed out, and the new training period starts you will see them. It also has to do with money there are some companies that can afford to buy athletes to shoot their products and others who can't.

[Tycho]

Walther house-tested the SSP for three years - see what good that did. Pistols released into the real world of induhviduals show symptoms never encountered before, because a lot of people tend to try a lot of stuff the designers never thought of. Hammerli needed 10 years to get the 280 running well, adn then restarted their troubles with the SP20 - MG for sure was faster than that. All those complainants - who probably never saw a MG2 outside of the www - should **** ** and clean their GSPs and leave us in peace. We know what we're doing and we like what we're doing.

PS: Josh - your last argument is ****, but to see that you'd have to have read the previous posts about the MG2 owners' experience with MG... and who'd want to sell their MG2? How many CM102E do you see on the market? Why not, as it doesn't work too well, either?

[Fred Mannis]

Richard

probably wouldn't have helped anyways as most of these problems are production problems which will not be found till you do serial production.

Good point. I know in the chemical industry there can be a big difference between pilot plant production and full scale operations.

[gunnery]

I am the pride owner of a new MG2.
I have shot a 1000 rounds without problems.
The mechanism is verry dificult and i think a
local gunsmith shoud stay of your MG.
If i shoud have problems, i send it back to Itally.

[Richard H]

Walther house-tested the SSP for three years - see what good that did. Pistols released into the real world of induhviduals show symptoms never encountered before, because a lot of people tend to try a lot of stuff the designers never thought of. Hammerli needed 10 years to get the 280 running well, adn then restarted their troubles with the SP20 - MG for sure was faster than that. All those complainants - who probably never saw a MG2 outside of the www - should **** ** and clean their GSPs and leave us in peace. We know what we're doing and we like what we're doing.

PS: Josh - your last argument is ****, but to see that you'd have to have read the previous posts about the MG2 owners' experience with MG... and who'd want to sell their MG2? How many CM102E do you see on the market? Why not, as it doesn't work too well, either?

Well put Tycho, I'm sure in time both the MG2 and the SSP will be fabulous pistols. I apprecaite all those who have put the money down and used the pistol and have provided feedback to the Mfg. to make them better.

I have shot a couple of MG2 (including what I beleive to be the first in Canada and it is a marvelous pistol. I shot the SSP and really like it too, in fact I'm considering purchasing the SSP or maybe an MG2. I know if I have MG2 issues there always Mark Briggs to give me a hand with it.

[Mark Briggs]

Aw shucks, Richard. Now you've got me blushing!!!! ;-)

Actually, I think we were about one part short of being able to make Brian's pistol work. His choice of sending it back to Italy will, I believe, be proven to be a wise one as the "masters" have a far greater store of both parts and knowledge than I will ever have. If it shoots better than my MG-2's when it comes back I'm going to be seriously envious of Brian, despite the pain he's gone through to get to that point.

Oh, for the other folks who are reading this, one of the reasons Brian didn't send his pistol back to Italy in May was because I counselled him not to, primarily because MG had already committed to sending him new parts and that we likely would be able to make the gun work before Brian's biggest competition this summer. That decision, in hindsight, likely wasn't the best choice to make. But Brian had a working MG-2 to take to an international match, even though it was made of parts from both his gun and one of mine. Now he has the luxury of time, so returning the pistol to Italy is a much better option.

As other posters have mentioned here, since most manufacturers have some initial troubles with their pistols, often it's not the quality of the gun that counts as much as the quality of after-sales service. Matchguns has certainly been excellent to deal with, and on the basis of their good service I would not hesitate to purchase another Matchguns pistol.

[Mad Max]

What puzzles me is why you all waste time and effort with this pistol? Are you a bunch of masochists? :-) Dont give me that bull crap about that the MG2 is soo special and gives sooo much higher scores when it works. Why doesn't anyone in the World Cup use it if it is so damn good as you say it is?

Think of all the time you could have spent on training instead of doing this never ending beta testing for match guns.

Well people like you should thank your lucky stars that other people do spend there money and time with new pistols. If it wasn't for them you'd have no pistols to shoot. There has not been a new pistol designed that didn't have problems when it was released.

You are my lucky star Richard H. Thanks for your blessings. LOL!

That other bull crap about MG2 being released between Olympics and therefore not beeing used in World Cups. What on earth are you talking about? To qualify for the olympics you have to win a quota. Quota places are won at World Cups and at other big international competitions like World championships, European championships etc. In other words, competitions at the absolute highest level.

Ask yourself, is it likely that a absolute top level competitor would use anything than a top level pistol to be able to qualify to the olympics. Again, why isn't the MG2 being used at World Cups if it is that damn good that you fanatics say it is?

The truth is that there is no magic pistol. There is no magic equipment that will make you a shooting star. It's all about talent and a lot of work. Using overly complicated and unreliable pistols like MG2 will ruin competitions and training. Thats my point.

[Richard H]

What puzzles me is why you all waste time and effort with this pistol? Are you a bunch of masochists? :-) Dont give me that bull crap about that the MG2 is soo special and gives sooo much higher scores when it works. Why doesn't anyone in the World Cup use it if it is so damn good as you say it is?

Think of all the time you could have spent on training instead of doing this never ending beta testing for match guns.

Well people like you should thank your lucky stars that other people do spend there money and time with new pistols. If it wasn't for them you'd have no pistols to shoot. There has not been a new pistol designed that didn't have problems when it was released.

You are my lucky star Richard H. Thanks for your blessings. LOL!

That other bull crap about MG2 being released between Olympics and therefore not beeing used in World Cups. What on earth are you talking about? To qualify for the olympics you have to win a quota. Quota places are won at World Cups and at other big international competitions like World championships, European championships etc. In other words, competitions at the absolute highest level.

Ask yourself, is it likely that a absolute top level competitor would use anything than a top level pistol to be able to qualify to the olympics. Again, why isn't the MG2 being used at World Cups if it is that damn good that you fanatics say it is?

The truth is that there is no magic pistol. There is no magic equipment that will make you a shooting star. It's all about talent and a lot of work. Using overly complicated and unreliable pistols like MG2 will ruin competitions and training. Thats my point.

Mad Max , the typical ignorant guest with a big mouth and small brain.

If you read your own post you made the same point. The gun is new and not reliable so therefore the top shooters aren't going to switch to it while trying to win a quota spot are they. Do you need a picture drawn for you Mad Maxie.

So impress us all with what pistol you feel is the best. What do you shoot?

[Ted Bell]

Again, why isn't the MG2 being used at World Cups if it is that damn good that you fanatics say it is?

And on what basis do you claim that the MG-2 isn't being used at World Cups? Please share with us the World Cups you have attended in which there were no MG-2s. I have been to several (spectator only), and have in fact seen MG-2s being used at them, so it appears to me that you really don't know what you're talking about.

-Ted

[Richard H]

There were at least two that I remember when I was at the US World Cup @ Fort Benning this year. Maybe I met you there Mad Max, were you there?

[davidInOttawa]

Hi...

Just thought I would contribute my monthly check-in..

I shot another 500 rounds between practise on Wednesday, and a competition in Aurora (outside of Toronto) last weekend.. No misfires, no ejection jams .. nothing.

My MG-2 just works! That would be about 3,000 rounds without a failure since February.

Hey Mark.. should I clean it one of these days?????

Note to all you MG-2 evangelists, I've said this before.. please stop flogging your untested pistol on the masses.. I *don't want* to see any other MG-2s on the line..

PS: The only way you won't see an MG-2 on the line at the World Cup.. is if you don't download or buy the ISSF coverage of those events.

[Guest]

What puzzles me is why you all waste time and effort with this pistol? Are you a bunch of masochists? :-) Dont give me that bull crap about that the MG2 is soo special and gives sooo much higher scores when it works. Why doesn't anyone in the World Cup use it if it is so damn good as you say it is?

Think of all the time you could have spent on training instead of doing this never ending beta testing for match guns.

Well people like you should thank your lucky stars that other people do spend there money and time with new pistols. If it wasn't for them you'd have no pistols to shoot. There has not been a new pistol designed that didn't have problems when it was released.

You are my lucky star Richard H. Thanks for your blessings. LOL!

That other bull crap about MG2 being released between Olympics and therefore not beeing used in World Cups. What on earth are you talking about? To qualify for the olympics you have to win a quota. Quota places are won at World Cups and at other big international competitions like World championships, European championships etc. In other words, competitions at the absolute highest level.

Ask yourself, is it likely that a absolute top level competitor would use anything than a top level pistol to be able to qualify to the olympics. Again, why isn't the MG2 being used at World Cups if it is that damn good that you fanatics say it is?

The truth is that there is no magic pistol. There is no magic equipment that will make you a shooting star. It's all about talent and a lot of work. Using overly complicated and unreliable pistols like MG2 will ruin competitions and training. Thats my point.

Mad Max , the typical ignorant guest with a big mouth and small brain.

If you read your own post you made the same point. The gun is new and not reliable so therefore the top shooters aren't going to switch to it while trying to win a quota spot are they. Do you need a picture drawn for you Mad Maxie.

So impress us all with what pistol you feel is the best. What do you shoot?

You really showed targettalk what an idiot you are Richard H. You simply can not grasp my point. Personal insults, Richard "Lucky Star" H, yeah, that's the way to go dude! There is no need to call jihad on me because I bad talk your favourite little toy. LOL!!!

What I'm shooting with is not important. What is important is reliability. Go figure about what's reliable or not. It may hurt you to hear this but the MG2 is a very unreliable pistol, in fact the worst there is. It is so unreliable because of its overly complicated construction. Wedges, springs, hammer... Shesh, an engineers wet dream. But a top level shooters wet dream, I think not.

Wow Richard, two MG2 at Fort Benning! Two out of how many? It is certanly possible to make it to work. Some people here claims it works perfectly fine. I have no reason not to beleive those claims. Sure, with exchanging parts, sending pistol to Italy etc etc. But is it worth the effort when there are other (read: reliable) pistols that can shoot tens just as good as the MG2?

[julioalperi]

Spanish rapid fire champion Jorge LLames in 2006 shooting his MG2 with the standard slide and mechanical trigger finished 5th in Granada´s final summer 2006. The pistols used were: 1rst. Pardini (Ralf Schumann ) 2nd: Tesro, 3rd: Pardini, 4th: Pardini, 5th: MG2, 6th: AW93.

[Guest]

Richard,

Your immature, belittling, and caustic comments towards other posters are going to give Target Talk a bad reputation. I am surprised that the host has tolerated your trashy talk posts in this forum. I hope that the host posts a warning to all to stop trashy posters like you from expelling their trashy talk in here. Target Talk is intended to be a constructive forum, not a mud pit.

You present yourself as a very immature and insecure individual. Your bullying tactics are not wanted here and only illustrate your lack of respect toward others. Your posts hold no credibility.

What puzzles me is why you all waste time and effort with this pistol? Are you a bunch of masochists? :-) Dont give me that bull crap about that the MG2 is soo special and gives sooo much higher scores when it works. Why doesn't anyone in the World Cup use it if it is so damn good as you say it is?

Think of all the time you could have spent on training instead of doing this never ending beta testing for match guns.

Well people like you should thank your lucky stars that other people do spend there money and time with new pistols. If it wasn't for them you'd have no pistols to shoot. There has not been a new pistol designed that didn't have problems when it was released.

You are my lucky star Richard H. Thanks for your blessings. LOL!

That other bull crap about MG2 being released between Olympics and therefore not beeing used in World Cups. What on earth are you talking about? To qualify for the olympics you have to win a quota. Quota places are won at World Cups and at other big international competitions like World championships, European championships etc. In other words, competitions at the absolute highest level.

Ask yourself, is it likely that a absolute top level competitor would use anything than a top level pistol to be able to qualify to the olympics. Again, why isn't the MG2 being used at World Cups if it is that damn good that you fanatics say it is?

The truth is that there is no magic pistol. There is no magic equipment that will make you a shooting star. It's all about talent and a lot of work. Using overly complicated and unreliable pistols like MG2 will ruin competitions and training. Thats my point.

Mad Max , the typical ignorant guest with a big mouth and small brain.

If you read your own post you made the same point. The gun is new and not reliable so therefore the top shooters aren't going to switch to it while trying to win a quota spot are they. Do you need a picture drawn for you Mad Maxie.

So impress us all with what pistol you feel is the best. What do you shoot?

[Josh]

Very short:
- past experience with firearms has shown that great design are also usually simple design
- simple design are more reliable
- reliability is very important for top competitors: reliability problems during a match can ruin months of training efforts
- differences in performances between top match pistol is not big enough to make a top champion out of an average shooter. Training and shooting technique makes the difference. It is better to spend time on that than struggling to try to make a pistol work.

It is also true that Ceasare Morini had and still has great innovative ideas. Some of his past great ideas are now the norm. The problem is in the implementation of these ideas into a working product.

[Richard H]

[quote="Anonymous"]Richard,

Your immature, belittling, and caustic comments towards other posters are going to give Target Talk a bad reputation. I am surprised that the host has tolerated your trashy talk posts in this forum. I hope that the host posts a warning to all to stop trashy posters like you from expelling their trashy talk in here. Target Talk is intended to be a constructive forum, not a mud pit.

You present yourself as a very immature and insecure individual. Your bullying tactics are not wanted here and only illustrate your lack of respect toward others. Your posts hold no credibility.


[quote]

I really wish that the host would make it mandatory to join so we wouldn't have to put up with the trolls.

Mad Max and your Guest friends I'm not personally offended because you're bad mouthing a pistol I use, if you actually read any of the posts I don't have an MG2 (but have shot a few). I shoot a GSP, which I find very reliable (but early ones had problems). I also shoot the terrible Walther Free Pistol, that everyone complains about, because 30 years later Walther doesn't supply parts. I just find it amazing why so many who don't have them are so upset about a pistol (that they don't have). I also find it amazing that everyone is upset because it is a new pistol and simple is better, well then I guess no one should design anything new.

So if you want to continue the discussion please feel free to PM me don't waste everyones time and space attacking me. I be more than happyu to discuss anything with you. Have a nice day (really I mean that not sarcasticly either).

[Mg2-owner]

I really wish that the host would make it mandatory to join so we wouldn't have to put up with the trolls.

Please, Richard, no control of opinions. Some readers. like me, appreciate post telling the other side of the case, Richard. So, no forum tyrannie, please :-).
---
Finally, the two MG2-frames that were seized by the italian customs/postal services have been released. The frames were received by the MG-factory a week ago. I hope teh factory can make wonders and make the gun work. Time will show.

An earlier post expressed consern about the continous reconstruction of parts of the MG2, bringing low seriaal number MG2s to the brink og obsolescense. That is slowly bringing us worries, yes.
My gun is serial number 14xx, btw.

[Mark Briggs]

Dear MG-2owner - my pistols are s/n 11xx and 15xx. Like you, I am concerned that changes in the frame between these production runs will make it difficult to get parts for the older pistols. As owners/customers I would think that it's important that we ensure Match Guns understands that we have to either have a supply of the "old style" parts to match our "old style" pistols, or that they have to be prepared to have these guns come back to the factory for free upgrade so they can accept the "new style" parts.

It will be interesting to see what your guns look like when they are returned to you, and likewise for Brian's pistol. I'm very curious to see if they will make any machining changes to the frame to accept the new-style bullet cradle...