Someone care to explain

AAlex · Post by **AAlex** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:48 am

http://www.pilkguns.com/2005/munich/img_0898.htm

How in a world does this pass the "palm shelf does not touch the wrist" rule?

With my main grip you can see the crest line separating the hand from the wrist when I'm pointing at the target, as thats how *I* interpreted the rules.
(similar to this: http://www.pilkguns.com/2005/munich/img_0909.htm)

With my other grip I can have almost a centimeter of the palm shelf pushing against the wrist, but I could easily pass the wrist-break test by not pushing all the way into the grip if I need to demonstrate the "compliance" - it looks 100% kosher.

Can anyone elaborate on how the rule is enforced and much can you get away with before anyone says something?
Is that just a lip service to the rule and not being rigorously enforced?

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:25 am

My interpretation is that the palm shelf cannot touch the wrist joint since that is the part of the wrist that could impart additional stability. If you feel for it in your own wrist you will see it's a little further back than the heel of the hand. I sometimes get questions around my free pistol at weapons control but it has never failed (I should add that's only in smaller meetings, not internationals, although they are still ISSF qualified judges).

I suspect these kind of things would be looked at 'on range' unless the gun / grip looked especially unusual.

Rob.

Fred · Post by **Fred** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:44 am

RobStubbs wrote:My interpretation is that the palm shelf cannot touch the wrist joint since that is the part of the wrist that could impart additional stability.

What are you saying, Rob? That as long as the grip does not touch the wrist joint, it's OK for it to rest against the forearm, as it clearly appears to be doing in the cited photo? In any case, the wrist joint is a far less stable area than is the forearm. I hope David L will check in on this, as the shooter in the photo looks to be grossly violating the letter and the spirit of the rule.

There was some mention on TT, a few years ago, of the Italian grip maker for Pardini advising that the palm shelf should be as long as possible, while still fitting in the box. I think it might have been Mark Briggs who mentioned it. Is this another instance of ISSF tacitly overlooking a rule because so many people break it? This is no minor quibble about width of occluder or something like that. Allowing the pistol to rest against the forearm gives a major advantage!

FredB

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:01 am

Fred wrote:I hope David L will check in on this, as the shooter in the photo looks to be grossly violating the letter and the spirit of the rule.

You won't get any arguement from me on that Fred.

The problem could be that equipment control staff, for as long as I can remember, seem loathe to ask the shooter to hold the gun in the shooting position. They are therefore likely to miss this transgression.

Range staff should then spot it but many think that it must be OK as it has an equipment control sticker. It is certainly something that should be picked up during official training.

There are times when I have challenged a shooter on this point but, on closer inspection, the gun has been OK and it has just been an optical illusion. On many more occasions however it has been a problem with the grip.

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:40 pm

From the photo it does look like it's touching.

That said the photo is taken from an angle so it may not actually be touching. Like David said I've seen this myself where from behind and the side it definately looks like its touching but when viewed straight on from the side its not.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:52 pm

I was one of the staff in equipment control in 1996 in Atlanta and have also worked as large number of college pistol championships. The most difficult issue with those that are trying to "push the envelope" is that they don't put their hand fully into the grip during inspection. Thus, the only way to "catch" people is by careful observation on the firing line by line personnel, which in my experience very seldom happens. I do recall reading about one or two American women that were called to task at some big match trying this "trick" in sport pistol.