Training to visulize the shot process

[2650 Plus]

I need help on this as my falure rate is far too high. If I train 15 shooters, 5 get it and move into the master class in less than one year. 5 reach expert or sharpshooter , and the remaining 5 struggle . I discuss visualization techniques stressing positive approaches, I use what I call name dropping by bringing up the names of top shooters I have competed with and against and relating thing they have told me that support the concepts I teach. Those shooters that have trouble with visualization I use a verble command where the shooter tells him / herself to go step by step through the shot sequence. I reinforce every correct shot delivery by having the shooter verbalize the process used to deliver the shot. And I still end up with the split in performanceI I believe that If some one else trained the same group they might end up with the same numerical split but with different people in each group,And I may be totally wrong about this. Any Ideas?? Good Shooting Bill Horton

[jackh]

I bet your struggling shooters are being fed too much too fast. What do you judge them on? Score? It's too soon. They are suffering from detail overload.

Show them the basics in an introduction. Then impress upon them that it takes several building blocks to "do" the basics of sight alignment and trigger control.

When you say "step by step through the shot sequence", they don't know how to do the steps let alone the sequence. Break it down into each step or sub-skill. Then later allow them to reassemble them into a flow. Even then the flow has a preparation mode, and staged mode. Then comes the actual flowing "sequence" including follow through.

In case you are wondering I penned the stage mode to be the brief division between preparations and settling/pressing the trigger. In other words, there is a time you are not going to press the trigger (preparation) and a time when you will press the trigger and finish the shot.

Your struggling shooters need more time to learn each detail of the preparation, probably separately.

[Steve Swartz]

Bill:

I'll make a good assumption that you are of course giving all students a firm grounding in the basics from day one. The only thing I culd recommend- something I don't see many coaches doing or thinking about- is switching completely how progress is measured. The student needs to have progress measured against what they are trying to do, and doing properly:

I have had the best results, and most consistent results, by training shooters with performance measured strictly in "Behavioral" terms.

No scores, no group sizes, no targets.

The students must all have a very firm and deep (gut level) understanding of what it is they are supposed to be *doing* and how to recognize and improve performance against a specific set of behaviors.

For example, a series is scored on things like

- Was the front sight in deep, intense physical focus before and after the shot?
- Were the front and rear sights perfectly aligned before and after the shot?
- Did you achieve a smooth, calm wobble in the aiming area during the release of the shot?
- Was the shot released smoothly and rapidly, with no disturbance to sight alignment or focus?
- Was sight picture and alignment maintained through and after the release of the shot?

etc.

The student scores him/her self on a yes/no scale (advance to a numerical scale; 1-5 or 1-10 etc. as they begin to see and recognize the difference between correct and sloppy behavior)

This is all done dry fire/live fire against a blank (or uniformly patterned) surface for many, many repetitions.

Measuring performance using complex, integrated, not-directly-controllable things like "where the hole ended up on the paper" is totally bogus.

Steve Swartz

[Steve Swartz]

One addition/clarification

The student assesses his/her performance on *each* of those things listed . . . . you can add a summary column to rate quality of shot process overall.

Also- use this "behavioral evaluation" score card for every drill.

Works great during ball and dummy training.

Steve

[alb]

I need help on this as my falure rate is far too high. If I train 15 shooters, 5 get it and move into the master class in less than one year. 5 reach expert or sharpshooter , and the remaining 5 struggle . I discuss visualization techniques stressing positive approaches, I use what I call name dropping by bringing up the names of top shooters I have competed with and against and relating thing they have told me that support the concepts I teach. Those shooters that have trouble with visualization I use a verble command where the shooter tells him / herself to go step by step through the shot sequence. I reinforce every correct shot delivery by having the shooter verbalize the process used to deliver the shot. And I still end up with the split in performanceI I believe that If some one else trained the same group they might end up with the same numerical split but with different people in each group,And I may be totally wrong about this. Any Ideas?? Good Shooting Bill Horton

Are you kidding!? 1/3 of your students reach master class in less than a year? Please try not to hurt yourself patting yourself on the back!

Seriously, though, there are several external factors over which you have little or no control, in this order:

1. The quality of the equipment your students use.

2. The amount of time your students spend practicing.

3. Your students’ individual physiological peculiarities.

4. Your students’ natural ability.

1. I just recently read an article by Gil Hebard that he wrote back in 1961, titled, “Selecting a .22 Target Gun.” In it, he described a match that he put together in 1960, with 5 of the best shooters in the country, that he called the 30 dollar gun test. He gave each of the 5 shooters a cheap target pistol to shoot, and had them shoot a 30-shot national match course, with a substantial cash prize going to the winner. The match was won by Jim Clark Sr., the 1958 national champion, with a score of 266. His average score for that course of fire at the time was 294. Fifth place went to W.T. Toney, the 1952 national champion, with a score of 233. His average score for that course at the time was 291.

The point is this. If former national champions, high masters all, can’t even shoot expert class scores with inferior equipment, then what chance does someone who is just starting out have to learn to shoot well with inferior equipment? The answer is, “No chance at all.” In woodworking, we have a saying, “Buy the best and only cry once!”

2. How do you get to Broadway? “… Practice, practice, practice!” Practicing with inferior equipment is of limited value, but assuming you have addressed that issue adequately, it still requires a considerable amount of practice to learn and hone a new motor skill. I read somewhere once that it takes a minimum of 10,000 hours of practice to achieve an Olympic level of skill at anything. And that’s with world-class coaching and abundant natural ability.

Reaching a master class level of performance obviously doesn’t require nearly as much practice. But, I’ll bet that if you ask your students who reach this level in less than a year, you’ll find that they’ve been putting in some serious hours at the range.

Quality of practice is important also. SCATT, Rika and Noptel trainers all provide valuable feedback that it’s difficult for a shooter to acquire through introspection alone. Taking advantage of all of the technology available to improve the quality of practice does make a difference.

3. No amount of practice can make up for a physiological problem, such as poor vision. For example, we have an older shooter in our bullseye league who prefers to shoot iron sights. He does this because he likes to shoot ISSF air pistol and free pistol, and would rather practice those disciplines. Last night, with iron sights, he shot an 813. Last week, he pulled out his other target pistol with a dot sight on it, for the first time in a year, just to see if he can still shoot it. He shot an 863 with it. Unfortunately, no amount of practice is going to improve his eyesight.

He’d probably do better spending most of his practice time using the dot sight, so that he can refine the skills that he can improve. Your job as a coach is to spot physiological peculiarities and find ways to deal with them – a tall order, even for the best coaches in the world.

4. The ultimate example of natural ability in sports has to be Lance Armstrong, who dominated the world of cycling for 7 years. His heart pumps twice the normal average volume of blood per minute. His blood naturally has higher levels of hemoglobin, meaning that it carries a greater amount of oxygen per unit volume to his muscles than normal. And his muscles produce much less lactic acid than normal, cutting his recovery time to a fraction of that of other people. And you can forget about illegal drugs, the French cycling authorities not withstanding. He is the most drug-tested athlete in the history of sports, with over 330 random tests during that 7 year period, not one of which ever came back positive.

Of course, we’re talking shooting sports, not cycling. But the same thing applies. You simply can’t teach natural talent. Or, as an NBA coach once said, after drafting a 7-foot high school center, “You can’t teach height!”

How do you assess the natural ability of your students? Are their results consistent with your assessments of their ability?

The big question is, how good are the results that you are getting compared to other coaches – do you even know? They seem pretty good to me.

By the way, do you live anywhere near Malvern, PA? I may want to sign up!

Regards,

Al B.

[2650 Plus]

Note to Alb, If I took credit for the top feve in my assumption then I would have to assume responsibility for the bottom five as well. I am very consistant in having the shooter be responsible for his own success and lack of same. I shot for many years in an enviornment where If I won ,the coaches gathered behind the firing line and congretulated each other for the performance. That left nothing for the shooters that accomplished the task. I do learn from my experences. Really excelent responces , and I still have to figure out how to integrate them into the training program. I will be working on that in the coming weeks. Good Shooting Bill Horton [ Thanks Steve ]

[Steve Swartz]

Al is of course spot on also!

Oh Bill just remembered- especially for new shooters- don't overload them by having them evaluate all areas every single shot.

Start with just one or two areas per drill (the most relevant behaviors) eg alignement and focus for blank holding drills; alignment and trigger for dry fire, etc.

Didn't mean to imply every shooter needed to be "focusing" on everything all at the same time!

The point is your "bottom five" may not really be "getting it" from the standpoint of what it is exactly they should be looking for/trying to do. They may have just as much potential as the top five, but aren't reaching their potential because they are worrying about the wrong stuff.

Steve

[alb]

Note to Alb, If I took credit for the top feve in my assumption then I would have to assume responsibility for the bottom five as well. I am very consistant in having the shooter be responsible for his own success and lack of same. I shot for many years in an enviornment where If I won ,the coaches gathered behind the firing line and congretulated each other for the performance. That left nothing for the shooters that accomplished the task. I do learn from my experences.

Bill, I certainly never intended to take anything away from the accomplishments of your students -- they are the ones who did the learning and the ones who did the shooting.

I thought, however, that your original post was about your effectiveness as a coach, i.e., as someone who 'facilitates' the learning of a skill. Others have provided excellent feedback on coaching technique. I merely raised the question of whether or not you have a problem with your coaching technique to begin with. I made a list of external factors, over which you have little or no control, that may be holding some of your students back. I ordered them from easiest to hardest to address.

Inferior equipment can be addressed with a phone call and a credit card. Lack of practice can be addressed with lots of hard work. Physiological peculiarities can, in many cases, be addressed through insightful coaching and lots of practice. Lack of talent, unfortunately, will always be a limiting factor.

The question is how do you measure your success as a coach, so that you can address any issues that you might have.

And I still don't think that 1/3 of your students are going from beginner to master class in less than a year in spite of you.

And Steve, thanks for the kind words.

Regards,

Al B.

[bryan]

I think that some people are verbal, some visual, and most are a combination of both. but prefer one or the other.
I still think you can teach all to visualise eventually! but some will pick it up easily. others take some work. this group of people would not rate highly on the talent identification scale, but it would be to early to write them off as a serious competitor, they just need more time to get the idea.
I might suggest taking a more basic approach, teach them to picture other things than shooting related, then introduce your teaching once they understand what you mean.
seems like you are on the right track.

specific teaching styles are required for different learning types.

regards

bryan

[2650 Plus]

JackH. The concept of staging as you describe it is new to me. Would that be the time to do the last mental review of the key point you are stressing as the training goal for that session ? Remember, I am an old soldier and pretty set in my ways so change is somewhat difficult. But If I am on the right path, this seems to fit quite well. Al B you hit the nail on the head with practice, practice, practice. I was in Korea with the whole winter to train a team for the all army championships so the fifteen shooters lived less than fifty yards ftom the range. The very best of the group broke 2600 in the allarmy matches as the top new shooter.The only time it took a 2600 score to win the new shooter trophy. Steve I keep having a problem with being set in my ways. The hardest thing.. for me to change is the idea that I'm trying to teach how you shoot a TEN. I've been doing that for so long.... The change in just that is going to be a tough nut to crack.I've made copies of all the posts and put them in a folder. Take a peek at what Bryan posted. He really has good insite into what we are trying to do. I'm going to try and observe my shooters more closely to try and pick up on the individual differences.Al B also mentioned this as something to watch for.

[jackh]

Mr 2650
Staged. As the drag racer is totally prepared on the "staging line", there are certain things the shooter can prepare and then be totally done with. The racer-shooter is done with his engine setup and wrench turning. Then with the mind empty of thoughts of wrenches, holding, NPA, etc, he begins the hole shot flow with a raise/settle and press of the trigger.

And it is not a moment of mental review. There will be NOTHING to review if the preparations and setup are complete and the ability to maintain them are ingrained in the shooters skills. 'Staged' can be individually determined. Likely it is at 45 degrees down ready with sights aligned, or just outside the black with the dot.

No review, no fixing, just ready.

If this was golf, I'd win.

[2650 Plus]

Thanks Jack, I really wasn't sure how staging fits in the process. Does this sound closser? A moment of no stinking thinking, just an instant before going into the shot sequence and dilivering the shot on target. By the way I dont really think of myself as a coach. Having been a sergeant most of my adult life , I am conditioned to think more like a trainer. the basic assumption of a trainer is that every one starts from the same place and ends up the same way. I did not find that to apply in conpetition shooting and am still trying to work through the conflicts. Your help is most appreciated. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

Bryan, I think you've just shot the center shot. Your comments opened up memories for me of a coach I had many years ago. He started me out looking at a pencil eraser and mentally trying to make it look like a front sight. I havent thought about him in years and at the time I thought he was nuts. [ I already thought I knew what a front sight looked like] Its clear now that he was doing exactly what you refered to in your comments. Thanks coach, Good Shooting, Bill Horton

[coachwong]

BILL- THIS IS COACH WONG AND I'M USING "ALL CAPS" AS MY EYES ARE NOT WHAT THEY USE TO BE, BECAUSE I'M RIGHT AT 70 YEARS NOW. I WANT YOU TO KNOW STEVE SWARTZ IS RIGHT ON WITH HIS SUGGESTIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS TO HELP YOU GET WHERE YOU ARE TRYING TO GO WITH YOUR ATHLETES. I WOULD ADD ONE CAVIAT TO ALL THAT HAS BEEN SAID, HAVE YOUR ATHLETE/S PLACE A SINGLE SHOT "PERFECT 10" SHOT TARGET RIGHT BESIDE THEM TO REINFORECE THEIR THOUGHT PROCCESS JUST PRIOR TO THE "RAISE." THIS WILL DO 2 THINGS: 1) FOCUS ON NEXT "PERFECT" SHOT 2) HELP PREVENT TRYING TO SHOOT A 10 FOR THE 8 HE/SHE JUST SHOT. HOPE THIS HELPS COACH

E.C. "Coach" Wong
Asst. Nat'l Pistol Coach, (Ret.) USAS #0330
Nat'l Assoc of Shooting Sports Athletes (NASSA), CEO
2103 Wheaton Dr. / Richardson, TX 75081
O972-234-8780 / C214-477-9592
E-Mail: ecjopcwong@cs.com, / Web Site: www.nassa.org

[Russ]

PLACE A SINGLE SHOT "PERFECT 10" SHOT TARGET RIGHT BESIDE THEM

Also it will reinforce problem of switching attention from perfect sight alignment to perfect attention of the "prfect target" :(.....
Side affects, sorry....

Russ
True Recreational Shooter with Olympic style pistol

[Steve Swartz]

I believe Coach WOng is referring to using the "perfect ten" top assist in visualization PRIOR TO the staging phase . . . not sure how this preparation step would be a distraction at that point in the process?

Many top shooters have used "distractions" like this in their shot plans to assist in "staging" for the shot.

Although I do accept that many top shooters have also taken a lot of ribbing from other top shooters for using these "focus aids" as "crutches" as well . . .

(Mike Douglas out there?)

Steve Swartz

[Russ]

If Coach Wong trying to help "top shooters to overcome their "distractions"....it may help to them....but they do not ask any questions yet at TT :(....
I believe TT must oriented to shooters who do not have any coaching support, and this help must be adjusted and specified to they current problems and performance to the order to help them to get to the desirable top shooters level!

Russ
True Recreational Shooter with Olympic style pistol

[Guest]

Once again Russ is right on, TT is a great forum for beginner or intermediate shooters. I wish we could attract some national level shooters,someday.

[Guest]

Once again Russ is right on, TT is a great forum for beginner or intermediate shooters. I wish we could attract some national level shooters,someday.

Why not go the whole hog and imply that there are no international shooters on this forum?

Humph!

[jackh]

Perhaps this image is more appropriate for the shooters box.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/t ... cture2.jpg
I believe it was provided by a Target Talker. Thanks to whomever.