Is thinking bad ?

[bryan]

sounds interesting
that is the view many are taking, and this is another good example, but if I gave him 5 sets keys at once, then said you get xxxx dollars if you catch them all at once 3 times in a row, it might not be all that easy.
I have not read the book, so its not fair to brian unos to poke at it. If you can find a common understanding with it, stick to it, and likely many others will also find some common bond.


I hate the word concentrate with a passion. try not to use it. if I do come across it I like to ask what it means to the person concerned. focus your attention to one place is much better. lots time can be wasted trying to concentrate if you are unsure of what it really is.

bryan

[@650 Plus]

Focus your attention to one place, That one place being exactly where your eyes are focused as well. As I have repeated earlier sometimes you confuse the hell out of me and the next moment you develope an idea with perfect clarity. I suspect its a combination of diferent disciplins and very different backgrounds. I enjoy the differences very much. Keep posting to the forum as it needs new and different ideas. If only one out of hundreds turns out to lead to a break through then this will all be worth while. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[bryan]

That one place being exactly where your eyes are focused as well

Mmmmm. are you sure! So if I'm watching the target, but focusing on trigger release, then what!

ideas are not so different, just read the unfettered mind. it is very good. I still think the translation could use some work, but thats just my point of veiw.
parts contradict itself making it a little confusing. the author does indicate some uncertainty about some areas, so I am not sure about his understanding. If he is trying to associate/substitute the word concentration for "put the mind" I think he really has missed the concept.

I think mind stability is important for target shooting. that is to locate one place and lock onto it. The effects it creates are more suitable for target shooting than sword fighting? that is one is good to close everything out, the other it is good to open up your awareness to your surroundings.
I will try the later in more detail when I get better with the pistol. so far it is interesting, but feels to be more difficult to control emotions. I have been aware of it, but not tried it as a tool. But one of the contradicting parts indicates to lock it into one place, or be caught in the wrong place, which I would think the most correct, but least talked about.

what I would give to turn the clock back a few hundred yrs to have a talk with these guys. (probably want to stick me with a sword after 5min lol )
they heavily link this understanding to buddhism, true enlightenment. So knowing nothing about this, is somewhat confusing. being brought up in a different culture, it is going against everything I know and beleive on a religious point of veiw, it raises more questions than answers.
I have previously raised religious issues before reading the unfettered mind, and several of the issues are also raised there. sadly the one person that put it all into perspective is no long with us. Im no expert on the subject, but the more I look, the more similar some religious areas appear.

bryan

[2650 Plus]

I'm just dealing with my own technique so I will say; thinking about trigger has proven to be counter productive and usually leads to a disasterous outcome. With the pistol and that ball bearing wrist jost looking for some way to mess up I do every thing I can to not think of the trigger except to start the finger moving while the pistol is still above the aiming area [center hold on the bullseye]. Next I dont concern myself abour the target as thats the only thing that doesn't move, so I never look at it during the process of delivering the shot. What I see is very black front sight and a black rear notch and the flat top of the rear sight The target is a very dim fuzzy ,grey thing hanging out there in space. I think that is why I dont understand the difficulty expressed by so many shooters when they say "Its difficult seeing a black front sight against a black target." My target appeas to be grey and fuzzy. Note that I am addressing the two propositions you made in the top lines of your post. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[bryan]

looks pretty grey and fuzzy from here as well, maybe 20 yrs ago might look black, or some shooting glasses.
the trigger was an example of fucussing on something you are not able to see.

the stuff in the unfettered mind is very good, including not thinking etc, but have concerns about the religious implications, that is many may dismiss the content because of it and miss a lot of good information.

If you havent read it, I think it makes interesting reading, but takes a few goes to start to digest it.

I have stopped being so pedantic about trigger release, and went back to shot planning, results improved straight away. although having a specific trigger release is important for the shot plan, as you say, it seems counter productive focussing on it.

bryan

[2650 Plus]

Note to Bryan and Steve Starting the trigger finger moving first and never thinking about it until the pistol fires may just be another path to the unconcious firing you have discussed so many times. It may be possible using SKATT to identify the precision of the hold within the time the shot is actually being fired. If so,that time, if it is inside human norms for reaction times may provide reinforcement for instinctive/unconcious firing of the shot. [ Notice I still cannot feel comfortable calling it a release]I do feel comfortable with the early start of the trigger finger as a possible training technique for incouraging the developement of the automatic trigger manipulation.reguired for this to work in competition. I will also say that the slightest negetive input into the preparation for the shot delivery is almost sure to inhibit the smoothe progression of the pressure on the trigger. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[RobStubbs]

Note to Bryan and Steve Starting the trigger finger moving first and never thinking about it until the pistol fires may just be another path to the unconcious firing you have discussed so many times.

Bill,
It's not unconscious firing that's been discussed at length but subconscious - there's a massive difference.

Rob.

[2650 Plus]

Rob, Once I've started the trigger finger moving I dont think about it again and focus my eyes and mental effort on perfecting sighr alignment until after the pistol fires. I don;t know how the trigger manipulation works after its starts, so I dont know if it simply unconcious or as you believe sub concious. I did spend a lot of time doing drills that I thought was training the subconcious but I never found a way to test the concept. To this day I am not sure what is going on. It just works for me. Good SHooting Bill Horton

[funtoz]

[David Levene]

Every so often you see a post that reminds you, very clearly, that this sport can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be.

Thank you Larry, that was one of those posts.

[Steve Swartz]

Larry, David:

Indeed! You wouldn't believe the number of people who try to start "arguments" with me (well, maybe you would) by saying that I trey to overcomplicate shooting. They seem puzzled when I vehemently agree with them about how the act of shooting a perfect ten is one of the simplest things in the world.

Erich Buljung (past USA national team coach; he of "No Stinkin Thinkin" fame) used to comment that "You could train a monkey to be the national champion; and the US military has been proving it for years!" [ actually, he was referring to a specific branch of the service . . . who shall remain unidentified =8^) ]

However

The paradox is this: you don't really need to understand HOW it happens in order to MAKE it happen! If you have a good coach, and trust everything they tell you to the point where you internalize and unquestionaingly follow their direction, you'll be in great shape.


However, thias presuppose that

- The coach, not you, has to understand all that complicated stuff about how the shot process is supposed to happen
- The coach, not you, has to be able to recognize errors in perception and/or execution, and be able to recommend course of corrective action
- You just have to BELIEVE in what the coach is telling you and DO IT


Hmmm . . . so maybe this explains why there are so many great coaches who were never great shooters; and so many great shooters who are miserable coaches?

How many great shooters really understand all the underlying complexities of the so-called "perfect shot process" and all that entails? How many great coaches, knowing the complexities, have the ability to shut all of that out and just shoot?

Steve Swartz

(And how many idiots [like me] are out here trying to do both?)

[Mike S-J]

Apropos Steve's last post:

Great art critics are (very) rarely great artists and vice versa.

My coach's refrain is "just shoot"! (usually after I have spent the last 40 minutes analysing some microscopic aspect of my process).

[bryan]

Monkeys! like to see that
your not an idiot steve, and i hope I wasnt one of the people you refer to as trying to start arguments with you, you do it all by yourself! lol

lots people do both, and very well, just this ugly conflict of interest can raise its ugly head. I think when you truly understand the complexities of competing at elite level, it will be much easier for you to either compete, coach or both.
maybe you need to find a suitable coach for a while.

not to many none successful athletes successfully coach at elite level to my knowledge, but there must be some. you can read all the books you want, but it doesnt give you an understanding of being on the start line at say olympic level.


mike, suprised your coach waited that long!

imho

bryan

[David Levene]

You wouldn't believe the number of people who try to start "arguments" with me (well, maybe you would) by saying that I trey to overcomplicate shooting.

I think that one of the biggest problems Steve, as you have intimated on other threads, is that shooters with such differing abilities and aspirations read TT. The elements of shooting they should be thinking about and concentrating on are dependant on their current position.

I am going to stick my head above the parapet here and say that, in my opinion, unless you are normally shooting 540+ in air pistol you should be concentrating virtually all of your effort on sight alignment, trigger control and (to a lesser extent) equipment suitability. More technical aspects and concepts have little relevance to you, you need to be concentrating on the things that really matter. You must be able to hold the sights locked together throughout the shot release.

How do I arrive at this magical score of 540+?, simply by taking myself as an example.

Plus Points:-
I am able to maintain a solid sight alignment.
I have a good, positive trigger control.
I am lucky enough to be able to afford a top class pistol and shooting glasses.
The enormous amount of training and work I put into my shooting in the 1980s taught me what was most important in the shot process.

Minus Points:-
I am a vastly overweight man in his mid 50s who leads an extremely sedentary lifestyle.
I only take the gun out of its case 10-12 times a year, and then only to shoot matches, never training.
As a result of the above I have the sort of hold that makes you feal sea-sick and the stamina that makes me take breaks every 5-10 shots in the last two thirds of a match.
I last did any mental rehearsal in the early 1990s.
I have little concentration on the firing point and frequently find myself thinking about other people's shooting.

Result:-
I expect to average 540+ over the course of a year and get really annoyed if I score less than 535 in a match.

(My) Conclusion:-
If you are shooting more than once per month but still not averaging 540+ then you need to concentrate on the very basics, holding the sights locked together throughout the shot release (as I said before).
Only once you have mastered those basics should you worry about the more complicated aspects of shooting. I think you will find that you'll have picked up things like stance, breathing, aiming and hold along the way.


(Stands back and waits for the protests)

[Fred Mannis]

I think that one of the biggest problems Steve, as you have intimated on other threads, is that shooters with such differing abilities and aspirations read TT. The elements of shooting they should be thinking about and concentrating on are dependant on their current position.

I agree with you David. And my impression is that many (most?) of the arguments/discussions are amongst those of us who are in the process of trying to move from 54x to 56x (or better). In the U.S. that means that you are on your own, trying out various approaches that you pick up in discussions, reading, or develop yourself.

Had to smile at your plus' and minus'. Not the same as mine, but not that different either :-)

Fred

[David Levene]

I agree with you David. And my impression is that many (most?) of the arguments/discussions are amongst those of us who are in the process of trying to move from 54x to 56x (or better). In the U.S. that means that you are on your own, trying out various approaches that you pick up in discussions, reading, or develop yourself.

Don't feel hard-done-by Fred. That isn't a problem confined to the US. In a great many countries that is a score level where you are very much on your own.

[funtoz]

[Fred Mannis]

I need someone to whack me up side of the head every time I start doing some stinking thinking.

One of the fun things about coaching is being able to do just that to the coachee. I've been teaching one of my friends how to shoot the shotgun and everytime he lets that bird get out to 40+ yards because he is 'refining his sight picture' I yell in his ear 'No Stinking Thinking'. It really works :-)

Fred

[Steve Swartz]

Larry:

Amen, Brother!

As to trigger control being the key: the whole subconscious release while maintaining alignment thing works iff your trigger is absolutely consistent, every single time (in terms of "lock time" from brain signal to release of shot).

My FP at Nationals was "Ho-Rendous" Day one and first 15 shots of Day 2. I sensed that the shots were breaking somewhat prematurely? Something didn't feel right? Felt like my trigger was even lighter thn normal.

Took a pause, cranked up the trigger weight until it felt "right" again, and averagedd 90%+ for the remaining 45 shots or so.

My theory is this: The spring on the Morini was lightening up just ever so slightly over time. My brain expected a release delay of "X" ms and I was actually delivering a delay of "X-something" ms. So my shots were breaking just a skosh early. Adjusted the trigger, this fixed the spark advance so to speak and it was back in the ball game.

Another "asterisked, exclamation marked" epiphany for the old log book.*

Why can't we ever figure this crap out during training?

Steve Swartz

*(got home and played around with the trigger weight on the Rika. You other computerized guys will have to verify this- entirely anecdotal with small sample size etc.- but I think I saw a definite "light weight, early break; heavy weight, late break" pattern. Go figure. One more complicated thing to worry about! I love this game.)

[2650 Plus]

Steve, ypur last post on this topic reminded me of a way to compensate for differemt weight triggers. I spent some time looking /examiting the time it took with various speeds of rate of trigger manipulation. I gave it up because varing the speeds took concentration away from sight allignment. I ended up using initial pressure to compensate for different trigger weights. The heaver the trigger pull , the more initial pressure I applied before starting the steadily increasing pressure that would cause the pistol to fire. I brought a minimum of gunsmithing skills to the range and avoided tinkering with my competition guns. Ny reliance was on Travis Strahan for 100% of my tuning of the pistols. I believe he is still recognized as the very best in the business although some may have other favorites. Good Shooting Bill Horton