I am the captain of my universities pistol team, and the president of our gun club has given me an incredible oppurtunity. I can pick out any pistol for the club to buy, regardless of cost. We have a couple decent free pistols, but we are severely lacking in the standard pistol department, with only a few old S&W 41's, Buckmarks, and Mark II's. Oh, and a partially functionally IZH.
I've never had the chance to shoot any of the top-notch olympic quality guns, so I don't know where our money will be best spent. If anyone could recomend a gun, it would be much appreciated.
Money aside, what is the best .22 standard pistol?
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The Wiry Irishman
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:55 pm
Hmm.....
Are you looking purely for a standard pistol?
Much as I hate to admit it, if I were organizing a shooting club, I would be looking at getting good APs first....simply because they are cheaper to shoot.
Now, as to your primary question....
It's a real toss-up between the FWB AW93, Pardini SP, and maybe the Hammerli SP20. The Walther GSP is also good, but I've not shot the two-stage trigger.
If I were equipping a college club, I would go for the AW93 if cost was absolutely no object....and the Pardini if cost was a factor.
Are you looking purely for a standard pistol?
Much as I hate to admit it, if I were organizing a shooting club, I would be looking at getting good APs first....simply because they are cheaper to shoot.
Now, as to your primary question....
It's a real toss-up between the FWB AW93, Pardini SP, and maybe the Hammerli SP20. The Walther GSP is also good, but I've not shot the two-stage trigger.
If I were equipping a college club, I would go for the AW93 if cost was absolutely no object....and the Pardini if cost was a factor.
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john bickar
- Posts: 618
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 3:58 am
- Location: Corner of Walk & Don't Walk
If it were me, I'd buy a Walther GSP.
If I were you, I'd give Paul Benneche, Doc Sexton, or Kathy Callahan a call and ask them the same question. They're the coaches at UVa, the Citadel, and the US Naval Academy, respectively. Each of them forgets more about collegiate pistol, every day, than I ever learned in my lifetime. You can find their contact information on the NRA website.
If I were you, I'd give Paul Benneche, Doc Sexton, or Kathy Callahan a call and ask them the same question. They're the coaches at UVa, the Citadel, and the US Naval Academy, respectively. Each of them forgets more about collegiate pistol, every day, than I ever learned in my lifetime. You can find their contact information on the NRA website.
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Walter Young
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:05 pm
Although the GSP is a fine pistol, Walther isn't known for supporting their pistols with parts for very long after they come out with a new or revised model. The MIT pistol team had two older GSP's that broke. Walther informed them that there was a design flaw in that model that caused the failures. They had no replacement parts, and they went on to recommend that MIT buy two of the new models to replace them. No thanks.
I had similar problems with a couple of older Walther air pistols. A few years after they changed them, the supply of spare parts dried up completely.
Eventually, it gets hard to find parts for almost any older pistol (although Hammerli was legendary for fixing older guns). However, many manufacturers seem to lay in a much better stock of spares than Walther does when they discontinue a model. I've had reasonble luck getting parts for an older Pardini free pistol, long after it had been discontinued. Some vendors also don't change models very often, which helps ensure there are parts available. My Benelli MP90 is almost 10 years old, and as far as I know, it is unchanged from the current version. I certainly have no problem getting parts.
Personally, I'd get Pardini SP's. A large number of bullseye shooters in my area have bought them in the last 5 years or so, and I haven't heard of any complaints. My wife has one, and I will probably get one at some point this year.
I had similar problems with a couple of older Walther air pistols. A few years after they changed them, the supply of spare parts dried up completely.
Eventually, it gets hard to find parts for almost any older pistol (although Hammerli was legendary for fixing older guns). However, many manufacturers seem to lay in a much better stock of spares than Walther does when they discontinue a model. I've had reasonble luck getting parts for an older Pardini free pistol, long after it had been discontinued. Some vendors also don't change models very often, which helps ensure there are parts available. My Benelli MP90 is almost 10 years old, and as far as I know, it is unchanged from the current version. I certainly have no problem getting parts.
Personally, I'd get Pardini SP's. A large number of bullseye shooters in my area have bought them in the last 5 years or so, and I haven't heard of any complaints. My wife has one, and I will probably get one at some point this year.
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Guest
confessions of a GSP owner
I am using the same GSP since 1983. I have not encountered problems so far.
BUT: I needed a lot of training to control the trigger properly (which means to say: during dry training to release the hammer without making the pistol to move)
The new SSP from Walther has improved quite a lot but still performs (a lot) worse than a relatively new player on the market, the TESRO .22 ( http://www.tesro.de ). Its trigger matches the one of an air pistol.
Before going for GSP I had the chance to use a Ruger Mark II. It was at that time impressive as well (apart from the apalling grip of course). The trigger was ok for me (not adjustable) and the precision was the same as the GSP. As a previous poster hinted, the spare part situation made me go for the GSP (having my residence in Germany).
With my favorite ammunition (remington target) running out, I had to look for a nwe supply, and tried several (from ELEY, LAPUA, RWS, CCI and REmington again). When it is freezing, some of the RWS ammunition and LAPUA do not perform well - whereas ELEY is just too expensive. During warm temperatures, the GSP swallows usually any ammunition.
I ended using the CCI standard velocity ammunition for competition (better shot control for the timed/rapid fire part of standard pistol) and the remington target for training purposes.
BUT: I needed a lot of training to control the trigger properly (which means to say: during dry training to release the hammer without making the pistol to move)
The new SSP from Walther has improved quite a lot but still performs (a lot) worse than a relatively new player on the market, the TESRO .22 ( http://www.tesro.de ). Its trigger matches the one of an air pistol.
Before going for GSP I had the chance to use a Ruger Mark II. It was at that time impressive as well (apart from the apalling grip of course). The trigger was ok for me (not adjustable) and the precision was the same as the GSP. As a previous poster hinted, the spare part situation made me go for the GSP (having my residence in Germany).
With my favorite ammunition (remington target) running out, I had to look for a nwe supply, and tried several (from ELEY, LAPUA, RWS, CCI and REmington again). When it is freezing, some of the RWS ammunition and LAPUA do not perform well - whereas ELEY is just too expensive. During warm temperatures, the GSP swallows usually any ammunition.
I ended using the CCI standard velocity ammunition for competition (better shot control for the timed/rapid fire part of standard pistol) and the remington target for training purposes.
As a FWB Service center for a number of years, we have never had any problems getting AW93 parts, and of course stock the more common ones. Of the long term manufacturers, FWB is probably the best about maintaing older gun parts.
for that matter, we have had very few problems getting older Walther parts. From a gunsmith perspective, I would say the best most reliable guns CURRENTLY on the market or either the GSP or A93. Pardini SP and Hammerli SP20 are also ok if you keep the parts readily avaialble that they are known to eat.
for that matter, we have had very few problems getting older Walther parts. From a gunsmith perspective, I would say the best most reliable guns CURRENTLY on the market or either the GSP or A93. Pardini SP and Hammerli SP20 are also ok if you keep the parts readily avaialble that they are known to eat.
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kalz54
Why not the MG2
I take part of Matchguns, but why not the MG2 now available also with electronic trigger, the most performant sport gun today on the market ?
The Rapid fire version is ideal for this type of competitions.
Stefano
The Rapid fire version is ideal for this type of competitions.
Stefano
The MG2 is a wonderful design, but still really unproven for reliability over the long run and has had issues in the short term which I beleive have been addressed. It is a very complex design, which requires some time and skill to clean properly. All those above reasons make it not the best choice for a "CLUB" type pistol. Another thing would be the availability of parts in the US and those who can work on them.
GSP's have been around forever and even here in Canada parts are realatively easy to get( either locally or out of the US), at any match you're likely at you'd find people with spares ( I have enough parts in my box to do 3 .32's and 3 .22" ie springs, extractors, firing pins and ejectors) of which I have only change one ejector in the .32 in five years (only because the rivet that holds it in became loose). Both of mine are mid 80's and to my knowledge still have all the factory components (less the one mentioned above). If I ever had trigger issues I could just pop it out and swap it with the unit from my other pistol or anyone elses. Cleaning a GSP is as easy as it gets. All of these things make a GSP a good choice for a "CLUB" type pistol.
Can't speak for the AW93 but Scott sure can so I'd be more than willing to take his word for it.
Someday the MG2 may be a good "CLUB" pistol but this early I'd say its a gamble, unless Matchguns was willing to give them a really sweet deal to get more pistols out there to prove that they are reliable, and in that case I'd take one too, I put better than 8000 rnds though my GSP a year.
I did shoot an MG2 and like I said before it does shoot beautifully. So this post is not meant to detract from a nice product. An individual who can take care of the pistol probably would do well with one. Another plus is that Matchguns takes part in this forum so they can react to customer issues, I give them lots of credit for that.
GSP's have been around forever and even here in Canada parts are realatively easy to get( either locally or out of the US), at any match you're likely at you'd find people with spares ( I have enough parts in my box to do 3 .32's and 3 .22" ie springs, extractors, firing pins and ejectors) of which I have only change one ejector in the .32 in five years (only because the rivet that holds it in became loose). Both of mine are mid 80's and to my knowledge still have all the factory components (less the one mentioned above). If I ever had trigger issues I could just pop it out and swap it with the unit from my other pistol or anyone elses. Cleaning a GSP is as easy as it gets. All of these things make a GSP a good choice for a "CLUB" type pistol.
Can't speak for the AW93 but Scott sure can so I'd be more than willing to take his word for it.
Someday the MG2 may be a good "CLUB" pistol but this early I'd say its a gamble, unless Matchguns was willing to give them a really sweet deal to get more pistols out there to prove that they are reliable, and in that case I'd take one too, I put better than 8000 rnds though my GSP a year.
I did shoot an MG2 and like I said before it does shoot beautifully. So this post is not meant to detract from a nice product. An individual who can take care of the pistol probably would do well with one. Another plus is that Matchguns takes part in this forum so they can react to customer issues, I give them lots of credit for that.
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davidInOttawa
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:36 am
- Location: Ottawa, Canada
mg2 as a club gun...
I agree with Richard...
I have an MG2, and I LOVE IT!!!! But.. no one should be ready to buy it as a "club" gun. For a good club gun you need a tank (or a Toyota) ... not a Ferrari. Even the fwb 93 (a fairly recent design) is pedestrian compared to the MG2.
I mean.. look at the MG2's magazine... A plastic tube!!! Are you prepared to have 20 grubby hands shoving bullets into it?? And then depending on it for a major competition???
If you REALLY mean that money is no option, and you have a good gunsmith, then the MG2 (in my humble opinion) can't be beat. The trigger is amazing, and the felt recoil is minimal. It is more than capable of winning at international levels.
The only other standard pistols I've had a chance to shoot (pardini and izh-35), all performed flawlessly.
Best of luck!
David
I have an MG2, and I LOVE IT!!!! But.. no one should be ready to buy it as a "club" gun. For a good club gun you need a tank (or a Toyota) ... not a Ferrari. Even the fwb 93 (a fairly recent design) is pedestrian compared to the MG2.
I mean.. look at the MG2's magazine... A plastic tube!!! Are you prepared to have 20 grubby hands shoving bullets into it?? And then depending on it for a major competition???
If you REALLY mean that money is no option, and you have a good gunsmith, then the MG2 (in my humble opinion) can't be beat. The trigger is amazing, and the felt recoil is minimal. It is more than capable of winning at international levels.
The only other standard pistols I've had a chance to shoot (pardini and izh-35), all performed flawlessly.
Best of luck!
David
Yo, Stefano - my MG2E is in repair (in Lugano, in case you wanted to know) since January, and no end in sight - it seems that nothing whatsoever can be done about the electric trigger problems without personal consultation of maestro Cesare himself. So while it is certainly the most expensive pistol today on the market, there's no way to say anything about it's performance... And as an afterthought - your 2nd series recoil springs that came with Update #3 are worth zero, the updated MG2s (we have 5 MG2 and 4 MG2E in my club, so comparisons are no problem) show far more muzzle jump than the early series - so much for "the best"... And, where is that MG4, which allegedly was finished January 20??
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JulianY
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:26 am
- Location: A british shooting refugee in Amsterdam
- Contact:
Re: mg2 as a club gun...
Sorry folks but whilst the MG2 at least the one I saw was beautiful, money can buy anything but medals, and there is no way, with it's current reputation for reliability I would ever use one in competition.davidInOttawa wrote: If you REALLY mean that money is no option, and you have a good gunsmith, then the MG2 (in my humble opinion) can't be beat. The trigger is amazing, and the felt recoil is minimal. It is more than capable of winning at international levels.
Secondly I doubt club shooters need to be issued with Ferraris
JY
If you are looking for a good, reliable, parts & service availabilty you cannot go wrong with Pardini standard pistols. The cleaning of the Pardini is an easily accomplished chore with the most simple take-down of all out there. People tend to sell the Pardini short because the rest of the field is only found with factory supported teams, in which Pardini does not participate. The AW is too delicate-specially with the sights and the magazine wear problems. Forget (in fact don't even mention the MG-2 and/or SSP---big problems with both) GSP's will soon lose factory support and you will up a creek without a paddle. In Europe I believe the Tesro is another viable alternative.
What are you talking about they're still making GSP's. The SSP at this time is not replacing the GSP, they are manufacturing both at this time. You'd have a hard time shooting Center Fire with your SSP. That being said there's more GSP's around than almost any target gun. At the rate GSP's use spare parts I'm sure the stock will last quite awhile ( my limited stock of part will probably last 30-40 year). GSP's don't eat parts like firing pins like the "reliable" Pardini's that I know. Is your worry about Walther factory support based on the fact that they don't support the early 80's free pistol with the electronic trigger (which they didn't make)?Bob Riegl wrote:If you are looking for a good, reliable, parts & service availabilty you cannot go wrong with Pardini standard pistols. The cleaning of the Pardini is an easily accomplished chore with the most simple take-down of all out there. People tend to sell the Pardini short because the rest of the field is only found with factory supported teams, in which Pardini does not participate. The AW is too delicate-specially with the sights and the magazine wear problems. Forget (in fact don't even mention the MG-2 and/or SSP---big problems with both) GSP's will soon lose factory support and you will up a creek without a paddle. In Europe I believe the Tesro is another viable alternative.
What are the big problems you speak of regarding the SSP? I have heard of some minor issues.
The Tesro's are nice, but it sort of amazes me that you'd advocate them over Walther GSP's. Tesro is a new company with problably only a few thousand pistols out there, and Walther is an established compnay (who is probably one of the few who are really healthy finacially) and they have over a hundred thousand GSP's out there. So if factory support is really an issue why would you think Tesro a better gamble?
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David Banks
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:24 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
My suggestion is to find the pistol that suits the shooters the best. I own a Hammerli SP20 RRS and I love it, but having said that I chose it over the Feinwerbau AW93 because I didn't like the way the AW pointed or felt in my hand. Each person is different and requires different needs in a pistol. Your choice should be made on adjustability and adaptability for mutliple shooters.
The Walther is a wonderful pistol also, and I have not had a chance to shoot a new Pardini as yet. The Match Pistol is another great pistol, but consider that any one of the pistols you choose will all shoot better than any new shooter.
The Walther is a wonderful pistol also, and I have not had a chance to shoot a new Pardini as yet. The Match Pistol is another great pistol, but consider that any one of the pistols you choose will all shoot better than any new shooter.
As a user of the Walther SSP for some time now, I can say that it is a first-rate competition pistol and compares with the best. The pneumatic buffer is an innovative recoil suppression method as compared to the 'vibration muffler' of its predecessor, the GSP Expert.
To beat the recoil, several rapid fire pistols like Benelli-MP90S, Hammerli-SP20, Pardini SP New and Walther GSP Expert have limited the barrels to 4-4.5" as they impart a slightly lesser muzzle velocity (of the order of 50-100 ft/sec lesser) compared to 6" barrels like those of Feinwerkbau AW93, Unique DES96U and Walther SSP. While the smaller barrel is one solution to the recoil problem, penalties of accuracy (though minuscule over 25m distances) are incurred. Walther SSP has addressed this issue with the pneumatic buffer. Walther has also been able to reduce the weight of the SSP (only 970 grams) as the pneumatic buffer largely takes care of the recoil. There is, thus, no need to increase the mass (and consequently lower velocity to ensure F=Ma stays constant). The location of the magazine behind the trigger balances the pistol perfectly, with the centre of gravity lying right under the trigger. Additional counterweight/s tip the nose down a tad, which is just fine for the 'rapid fire' discipline.
I have been using CCI Standard Velocity for training and the ammo has always fed smoothly. For matches, I have used CCI Pistol Match as well as Lapua, both in a class of their own.
One notable feature is the SSP's 3D adjustable grip, which my fits my hand like a glove.
All in all, the SSP is a great pistol (and looks great too).
To beat the recoil, several rapid fire pistols like Benelli-MP90S, Hammerli-SP20, Pardini SP New and Walther GSP Expert have limited the barrels to 4-4.5" as they impart a slightly lesser muzzle velocity (of the order of 50-100 ft/sec lesser) compared to 6" barrels like those of Feinwerkbau AW93, Unique DES96U and Walther SSP. While the smaller barrel is one solution to the recoil problem, penalties of accuracy (though minuscule over 25m distances) are incurred. Walther SSP has addressed this issue with the pneumatic buffer. Walther has also been able to reduce the weight of the SSP (only 970 grams) as the pneumatic buffer largely takes care of the recoil. There is, thus, no need to increase the mass (and consequently lower velocity to ensure F=Ma stays constant). The location of the magazine behind the trigger balances the pistol perfectly, with the centre of gravity lying right under the trigger. Additional counterweight/s tip the nose down a tad, which is just fine for the 'rapid fire' discipline.
I have been using CCI Standard Velocity for training and the ammo has always fed smoothly. For matches, I have used CCI Pistol Match as well as Lapua, both in a class of their own.
One notable feature is the SSP's 3D adjustable grip, which my fits my hand like a glove.
All in all, the SSP is a great pistol (and looks great too).
Last edited by Airknight on Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Nicole Hamilton
- Posts: 477
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:17 pm
- Location: Redmond, Washington, USA
- Contact:
As should be clear from the previous responses, once you're committed to spending somewhere north of $1200 to $1500 for a standard pistol, there are several good choices, each with its adherents. David Banks's suggestion that the best pistol is the one that best fits that particular shooter is pretty cogent.
That said, may I offer an observation: With most brands, you hear people say, oh, I bought this and I love it and recommend it. You don't hear them rattle on about how they went on to buy a bunch more of that same brand. You do hear that from Pardini owners -- all the time! The brand loyalty I notice among Pardini owners is amazing. Pardini owners fall in love with the Pardini triggers and it's like pulling teeth to get them to consider anything else.
Personally, I have 4 of them: SP with a reddot for BE, SP New for SP, HP for CF and K22 for FP. Best guns ever.
That said, may I offer an observation: With most brands, you hear people say, oh, I bought this and I love it and recommend it. You don't hear them rattle on about how they went on to buy a bunch more of that same brand. You do hear that from Pardini owners -- all the time! The brand loyalty I notice among Pardini owners is amazing. Pardini owners fall in love with the Pardini triggers and it's like pulling teeth to get them to consider anything else.
Personally, I have 4 of them: SP with a reddot for BE, SP New for SP, HP for CF and K22 for FP. Best guns ever.