average score

[LkP]

i reckon tt after around 540, ur progress will become real slow, progressing at maybe a couple of points per mnth.

540 + 2 points x 12 months x 2 years = 588.. not too bad! But too much time!!!!! ... I stop before..;(

[guest 10]

someone once told me this "why are you concentrating? you should be focused instead"

took me a long time to realise what i was doing wrong. my current understanding is not to concern myself with shutting everything external away. just let it be and shot.

sorry bout that. i posted this and not the guest who shoots 580s. ive been shooting for around 6 years and now my avg is about 545(pb:551) with 65-70% of my shots being good ones. by good i mean 9.5 and better. basically i wobble too much. now i need to work on getting rid of the 8s that crop up every series.

[Guest]

someone once told me this "why are you concentrating? you should be focused instead"

took me a long time to realise what i was doing wrong. my current understanding is not to concern myself with shutting everything external away. just let it be and shot.

Surely , not such a long time... from your scores its hardly conceivable that you were doing anything wrong ! Was that when your score jumped up from 570 to 584 ?

The fruit of concentration is focus .


Elmas

.

It´s not only me that are anonymous :-) This message above, was not my message.

And my score didn´t jump from 570 to 584.

It´s like a stair and sometimes you take two steps and sometimes one step. Some days you even fall back one step. As long as I can feel and see progress, and feel joy in shooting, then I am happy. Two matches with the same score could be obtained in many different ways, so the score is just one aspect.

For me and for many other shooters that I know, this varies. Sometimes we shoot better in competition than in training and sometimes the other way. Sometimes we train hard and see no direct progress and sometimes we rest for days and win a competition because we relax, do things simple. I know shooters that days before a competition shoots worse than they have done in weeks, and then they win the competition. Same shooters a couple of weeks later shoots extremely good day after day and then seems to be in top condition. They sound and appear relaxed, confident and you think that this will be exciting, maybe he will set a new record today? And then they shoot a competion and they say that they feel the same, tried to do as always, but it didn´t work and the score was quite low for their usual standard.

I think that one of the biggest answers why this variations appear, is that we are humans with minds that varies a lot. Motivation, goals, concentration, focus, relaxation, positive thinking, your lifestyle and other things affect the shooter a lot more than we often realize.

I further think that this is important to know and remind ourselves, from beginner to elite shooter, in the end we are all the same, humans. A robot would shoot 600 p 100 times in a row with right equipment, but we don´t. And this challenge to beat our mind and shoot like a robot is a marvelous thrill for me :-) When my heart pumps, and I feel aroused, the gun shivers, but still squeze the trigger, and shoot ten after ten after ten, this is fun!!!

[RobStubbs]

It´s not only me that are anonymous :-) This message above, was not my message.

How much simpler it would be if all you shy people registered - or even guested with a name.

Rob.

[Nicole Hamilton]

How much simpler it would be if all you shy people registered - or even guested with a name.

And we could watch for their names and root for them on their national teams and in the news: "First time holding a gun, man sets new Olympic record!"

[the shy guest ;-)]

How much simpler it would be if all you shy people registered - or even guested with a name.

And we could watch for their names and root for them on their national teams and in the news: "First time holding a gun, man sets new Olympic record!"

Point taken.

Quite funny and a little bit of sarcasm and irrelevance too on the side...:-) It could sound like you either are deeply dissappointed that your own efforts maybe didn´t turn out so well as you wished. Or that you think that beginners with high goals, hard training and good progress are arrogant and insecure liers...

If you had read more between the lines Nicole, you could see that it´s not bragging about records. I am so new at this that I havent competed international yet. Nor set any spectacular records. I am not better than anybody else either. I have just tried to learn the basics and have fun during hard work. This year I have won some national competitions, and this is a fun step forward.

My scores are just some sweet reward for all hard work. I could just talk for myself and it´s very hard work behind my progress in training, and my small victorys at competitions, how many hours of work, struggle and sometimes frustration, I dont now, but it´s a lot! :-)

I set goals and work hard to reach them, and I still have a long way to go to become a master and win the biggest competitions.

I think that it doesn´t matter if a shooter obtains scores of 570+ in less than a year or if it´s 540 in ten years of shooting. But I think that with good planning, good goals and hard work, then is almost everything possible. Maybe we should encourage our beginners more that everything is possible?

Several people has beaten their personal records after a little training with me an trying my ideas and methods. And they were happy and I were happy with inspiring them and helping them. All of them said I didn´t think this was possible for me. I saw their potential, but they didn´t believe it was possible. Low confidence and low goals? I don´t now, but they were happy, and smiling! :-)

[Axel]

Well said "the shy guest"!

Some people here on targettalk will get deeply offended by high results. If high results have been achieved by a beginner it's even worse - the argument is that it will make other beginners feel bad. They will lose their face and quit shooting, instantly.

Why not see things in a more positive way? Why not see high scores as something positive and inspiring? No no, the loud "experts" here on targettalk knows how it should be done. Talking about hard and dedicated training and achieving pretty high scores in a short time is bad. It's called bragging. ;-)

[Nicole Hamilton]

It could sound like you either are deeply dissappointed that your own efforts maybe didn´t turn out so well as you wished. Or that you think that beginners with high goals, hard training and good progress are arrogant and insecure liers...

I don't think that's it. I'd never owned a gun until December 1999, when I bought a S&W 22A. In late November 2000, I bought a Steyr LP10P from our host. I shot my first matches in February 2001. Here's the classification card I got:



So I do think it's possible to get good scores pretty quickly, I'm just not a fan of setting expectations for new shooters that if they don't hit 540 in a year that they're no good. And btw, I'll also second the point there is a difference between what you do in practice and what you do in a match and also, that time away can hurt.

I almost never do less than 90% in practice in my basement but this last spring, had a slump when I was shooting in our AP league after having been away from AP for about 3 years and (even worse) trying to shoot some matches on days when I'd been doing a lot of physical labor driving ground rods for my ham station with a 16# sledge hammer. One big difference is that when you're practicing at home, if you find you suck because you're tired or in the wrong mood that day, you can just quit after 2 shots or pick another day. But you don't get to do that with a match; they just happen, ready or not.

But my own results aside, our overall league standings give what I think is a better picture of what newcomers should expect, which is that the very best shooters at a typical club will score into the low 90s but that most shooters will have trouble getting past 85% (equivalent to 510 out of 600.)

[TomAmlie]

our overall league standings

Getting off on a friendly tangent:
I envy you, Nicole, in that you have a league for ISSF-type shooting events, with apparently some pretty nice participation levels.

In my area there's a .22 indoor bullseye league, but that's about it.

Does anyone know of any recurring FP or AP matches in the central PA area? It's one thing to shoot against yourself over and over; it'd be nice to shoot with/against others for a change.

[Mike S-J]

Guest, Guest 10, shy guest, etc.

One reason beginers like me log onto forums like this is because of the provenance of the advice.

I generally do not take advice from my neighbour's grandmother on how to hold my pistol (for example) because she has not really shown me any evidence of her ability to give good advice in that area.

An expert shooter with known provenance who tells me that trying X or Y is a good thing will, not surprisingly, lead me to try X or Y. They "walk the walk" and even if they don't walk the 580+ walk, I know they have spent a lot of time helping people like me shoot.

Advice from a shooter who can shoot 580+ and helps his mates shoot 580+, but who has no provenance is, frankly, less use than a fish at a football match.

[Elmas]

Surely , not such a long time... from your scores its hardly conceivable that you were doing anything wrong ! Was that when your score jumped up from 570 to 584 ?

The fruit of concentration is focus .


Elmas

.

If he was doing nothing wrong then he would be shooting 600's.

Rob.

*smile*... "nothing wrong" should be taken in context and not in the absolute sense !!
... Scores 570 and over , are what ? Tens aplenty with a few nines and fewer still 8's or worse... Now what's wrong with that !!


What brings the score down from the eldorado 600 , are less than perfect executions of the perfect shot. The world record of 591 is indeed staggering !! Fifty one or fifty two tens ( Perfect Shots ) with eight or nine 9's only ! Or seven 9's and one 8 out of the sixty shots.... Amazing !!


Progress is simply the r e d u c t i o n of these less than perfect executions over the sixty shot match.. A slow and painful process , the result of years of determined and dedicated practice for most shooters ..

Elmas


.

[the shy guest]

Guest, Guest 10, shy guest, etc.

One reason beginers like me log onto forums like this is because of the provenance of the advice.

I generally do not take advice from my neighbour's grandmother on how to hold my pistol (for example) because she has not really shown me any evidence of her ability to give good advice in that area.

An expert shooter with known provenance who tells me that trying X or Y is a good thing will, not surprisingly, lead me to try X or Y. They "walk the walk" and even if they don't walk the 580+ walk, I know they have spent a lot of time helping people like me shoot.

Advice from a shooter who can shoot 580+ and helps his mates shoot 580+, but who has no provenance is, frankly, less use than a fish at a football match.

Provenance must be hard to verify and measure. How do you know that we have no provenance? ;-)

In the end it´s up to the individual to choose what we will try or not try. I have never claimed to be a guru with all the answers, or provenance. I am fully occupied with trying to shoot my best. If people think that everything that I say or do is wrong I don´t care, because it works for me.

But if I had helped ten of my mates to break new barriers and shoot 580+, and this would get them to win big competitions and reach their goals. Isn´t that a marvelous scenario? I think that your example with the fish is funny, and disagree, because my friends would be happy and I would be happy if that progress were the case. Provenance, theories, science etc. is interesting, but hard work and in the end good performance which produces good scores, is what gives medals.

[Nicole Hamilton]

Provenance must be hard to verify and measure.

Well, yes, so long as you remain anonymous, it is, which I imagine was Mike's point.

[the shy guest]

So I do think it's possible to get good scores pretty quickly, I'm just not a fan of setting expectations for new shooters that if they don't hit 540 in a year that they're no good. And btw, I'll also second the point there is a difference between what you do in practice and what you do in a match and also, that time away can hurt.

I FULLY AGREE.

I almost never do less than 90% in practice in my basement but this last spring, had a slump when I was shooting in our AP league after having been away from AP for about 3 years and (even worse) trying to shoot some matches on days when I'd been doing a lot of physical labor driving ground rods for my ham station with a 16# sledge hammer. One big difference is that when you're practicing at home, if you find you suck because you're tired or in the wrong mood that day, you can just quit after 2 shots or pick another day. But you don't get to do that with a match; they just happen, ready or not.

I THINK THAT YOU NEVER GIVE UP OR QUIT, IN EITHER TRAINING OR COMPETITION. THIS IS A CHALLENGE TO THINK POSITIVE, RELAX AND TAKE CONTROL OVER THE SITUATION.

But my own results aside, our overall league standings give what I think is a better picture of what newcomers should expect, which is that the very best shooters at a typical club will score into the low 90s but that most shooters will have trouble getting past 85% (equivalent to 510 out of 600.)

OK. I DONT HAVE MUCH STATISTICS ABOUT THAT. IT MAY VARY FROM CASE TO CASE. BUT I ONLY KNOW FIVE OTHER NEWCOMERS, AND ALL OF THEM REACHED 530-540 AND EVEN MORE IN THEIR FIRST YEAR, BOTH IN COMPETITION AND PRACTICE. LAST YEAR ONE OF THEM SHOT MATCHES AGAINST ME. WE SHOT ONE MATCH ONCE A WEEK IN SEVERAL WEEKS, AND WE HAD BOTH BEEN SHOOTING FOR TWO YEARS AND WE NEVER SHOT BELOW 560 IN THESE MATCHES.

TWO OF THESE NEWCOMERS HAVE RECENTLY BOUGHT FREEPISTOLS AND SHOOTS STEADY OVER 500 IN FREEPISTOL COMPETITIONS. THEY RECENTLY TOLD ME THAT THEIR NEW TRAINING RECORDS WERE OVER 530. AND FREEPISTOL IS QUITE HARDER THAN AIRPISTOL...THEY WILL BE GOOD IF THEY CONTINUE LIKE THIS...MAYBE YOU UNDERSTAND MY PERSPECTIVES NOW? THEY ARE HUNGRY AND LOOK FORWARD TO BEAT ME, AND I LOOK FORWARD TO KEEP BEATING MYSELF AND THEM :-)

[Nicole Hamilton]

I THINK THAT YOU NEVER GIVE UP OR QUIT, IN EITHER TRAINING OR COMPETITION. THIS IS A CHALLENGE TO THINK POSITIVE, RELAX AND TAKE CONTROL OVER THE SITUATION.

I agree it's important never to give up on trying to improve, but I think this goes too far. If you discover in practice that you just plain suck one day, then I think you should quit and come back to it on another day when you're in better mood or not tired or not hungry or not whatever it is that's a problem that day. I cannot see any possible reason to practice a bad habit.

[Richard H]

What brings the score down from the eldorado 600 , are less than perfect executions of the perfect shot. The world record of 591 is indeed staggering !! Fifty one or fifty two tens ( Perfect Shots ) with eight or nine 9's only ! Or seven 9's and one 8 out of the sixty shots.... Amazing !!


Elmas


.

The world record is 593 not 591.

http://www.issf-shooting.org/update/_re ... R&gender=M

Unfortunately the skeptisim seems to be lost on some. Personally I dont really believe that someone is shooting 587 can't make his national team, won't provide basic information (name or even country) and to top it off has done this in a year. I think something smells a little fishy or as we say someone has a pant full. But I could be wrong, but absent any sort of proof I well.......

[Fred Mannis]

Does anyone know of any recurring FP or AP matches in the central PA area? It's one thing to shoot against yourself over and over; it'd be nice to shoot with/against others for a change.

Tom,
Delaware State Pistol in Wilmington DE holds a FP and AP match (PTO) monthly from Oct to Apr. Next match is Nov 12 and I think there is still one slot open. AP starts at 10:00am and FP at 1:00. Where are you located in PA?

Twelfth Precinct in MD holds monthly AP matches.

[Richard H]

Does anyone know of any recurring FP or AP matches in the central PA area? It's one thing to shoot against yourself over and over; it'd be nice to shoot with/against others for a change.

Tom,
Delaware State Pistol in Wilmington DE holds a FP and AP match (PTO) monthly from Oct to Apr. Next match is Nov 12 and I think there is still one slot open. AP starts at 10:00am and FP at 1:00. Where are you located in PA?

Twelfth Precinct in MD holds monthly AP matches.

How's it off topic Fred, I'm sure your going to go and shoot 600 or 599 depending on the wind ;)

[guest 10]

even though people suggest that competitions are the same as training it doesnt work for me. whenever i need to shoot for scores my heart rate climbs and sometimes even doubles(from 60 resting to 120). this makes it very hard to shoot somehow. i noticed that for me anything more than 90 means i can't even align the sights properly.

im still at the stage where i can shoot and confidently say i hit a ten but not say i'll shot a ten now and proceed to hit a 10.

i dont rememeber the exact timeline but my progress was from 420s to 450 to 480 to 510 to 540. these are the steps that i had in my 6 years. took me about 3.5 years to reach 510 and 1.5 to reach 540s. the 551 does not count as i have not been able to replicate or better the score. usually i would train 2 times a week and infrequently 3 times a week. each session would be 2 to 3 hours. as i dont have a coach or have a specific training plan i just try to do what i feel would help the most each time.

[Guest]

Richard H...very good point. Let's hope "Guest" will provide his name and country. His results are remarkable, and inspiring. Surely a shooter of that calibre comes under the scrutiny of the National sporting body governing pistol shooting - as he's a potential medal winner for World Cup or the Olympics. I'm reading into his posts that he doesn't even have a coach (maybe he could clarify that) which makes his seemingly natural talent (and committment) remarkable.
It would be great to monitor his progress on our forum, and see someone so new in the sport rise to amount the top so quickly.
As for beginners who may feel a little "behind" by comparing scores with "guest" - no need.
Our club keepos pretty good records going back quite a while. Anyone who shoots around the 540 is doing pretty damn good. There are many who have been shooting for over 10 years...and still at that level.
560 is fantastic and over 560 is up with the very best. Let's remember...the Olympic MQS is 563.
Record show that about 90% of our club shooters in their first two years get to the 515 - 535 mark - with the average being 525.
Back to "guest"....please let us know who you are - as we're likely to have a potential World Champion amongst us.