my trigger on cm84 e
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
my trigger on cm84 e
I have 2 days too my first free pistol match,( with a real F.P.) I started shooting outdoors 3 days ago. 1st day was great, 2nd and 3rd day it was just starting to sprinkle and at 7 in the morning with clouds the lighting sucked. I couldnt make out the sides of my sights really good so i figured that might be the reason for my drop in score ( groups to the left and too the right), my big question is , I made a couple bad shots because of my trigger( should i at least try the lighter spring?) does any one out there use that spring? and now for my dumb question: does a rain drop effect the path of a bullet? thanks everyone David
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Re: my trigger on cm84 e
Rain, unless it is a real downpour, will not significantly effect the bullet path.david alaways wrote:I have 2 days too my first free pistol match,( with a real F.P.) I started shooting outdoors 3 days ago. 1st day was great, 2nd and 3rd day it was just starting to sprinkle and at 7 in the morning with clouds the lighting sucked. I couldnt make out the sides of my sights really good so i figured that might be the reason for my drop in score ( groups to the left and too the right), my big question is , I made a couple bad shots because of my trigger( should i at least try the lighter spring?) does any one out there use that spring? and now for my dumb question: does a rain drop effect the path of a bullet? thanks everyone David
As far as the sights are concerned, sounds like you should increase the width of your rear sight.
You don't say how the trigger caused some bad shots. I wouldn't change the feel of the trigger two days before a match. Most shooters I know shoot with trigger weights in the 50-150gm range. Lighter is not necessarily better.
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
trigger cm84e
I said it was my trigger but it was really my trigger finger, didnt go off as soon as i expected(I will wait till next week to change the spring). I will open my sights up today I never had that option before. ( alittle scared to do something new) just needed someone to suggest it. headed out too shot in the rain thanks Fred , david
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Steve Swartz
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
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Fred.Mannis
David,
Some stuff to read, if you haven't aleady:
Nygord's Notes http://www.nygord-precision.com/
Pilkguns Pistol Coaching Articles
I'm sure Steve will have a more detailed reply, but the answer to your question is YES BOTH, in the ratio of about twice as much dry fire as live fire.
Fred
Some stuff to read, if you haven't aleady:
Nygord's Notes http://www.nygord-precision.com/
Pilkguns Pistol Coaching Articles
I'm sure Steve will have a more detailed reply, but the answer to your question is YES BOTH, in the ratio of about twice as much dry fire as live fire.
Fred
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Steve Swartz
David:
Fred's right. Think about it- "training" is required to improve skills. "Practice" is required to make existing skills habitual. I would argue that right now, you are just practicing- you do not seem to be doing any training at all.
In order to train, you need to break down the act of delivering the perfect shot into small, logical elements. Each element (stance, grip, approach, aligning, holding, trigger release, etc.) must be developed under conditions that allow you to 1) try different things, and 2) watch for desired outcomes, and 3) analyze whether the outcome was achieved.
I would humbly and respectfully offer- no offense intended- that by "flailing away" at the range with live fire you run a very great risk that all you are doing is practicing bad habits.
You may have been taught how to swim by falling into a river, but that's probably not the best way to learn how to win the gold in the 100 medley.
Steve Swartz
Fred's right. Think about it- "training" is required to improve skills. "Practice" is required to make existing skills habitual. I would argue that right now, you are just practicing- you do not seem to be doing any training at all.
In order to train, you need to break down the act of delivering the perfect shot into small, logical elements. Each element (stance, grip, approach, aligning, holding, trigger release, etc.) must be developed under conditions that allow you to 1) try different things, and 2) watch for desired outcomes, and 3) analyze whether the outcome was achieved.
I would humbly and respectfully offer- no offense intended- that by "flailing away" at the range with live fire you run a very great risk that all you are doing is practicing bad habits.
You may have been taught how to swim by falling into a river, but that's probably not the best way to learn how to win the gold in the 100 medley.
Steve Swartz
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
from stance too etc.
every shot i take i am analyzing all those points of training, bullets cost money i dont waste any of them, thats why i usually only practice with what ammo im always going to use.a different ammo could mean a different outcome a different outcomes means a different perception of my training results. which changes my training practice. ( do u get what im trying too say?). any way i never waste a bullet. Because my time is precious i find that shooting live ammo always gives me a result that can be used in a calcalation, like math u shot then u have the answer, what factors i,e. grip stance etc .did u have in that equation that gave u that result, what did i change that gave me a different answer, or what did i do right to give me that perfect ten. I cant do that with dry fire, dry fire is only practice too me,(with a little conditioning). right now i need training, pracice is for people that dont have an ego like mine, ( or have alot of time to kill). I didnt realize that nygords notes had so much free pistol info in it, im reading them all tonight, the lighting and rear sight part was just what i was looking for. it actually has what i would call the formulas that i needed to solve the equation for the answers (shots) that i keep coming up with. ( i cant spell or type and my english skills suck , I know little about shooting . but training ,statisics, math, conditioning and problem solving are my forte. each is used everytime i pull a trigger. i hope u made it through this but just trying too make a point David
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Steve Swartz
Wow.
Buckle your seat belt, put on a really thick skin, and prepare for some "forthright" (some might say "Harsh") feedback. I will apologize in advance for my arrogant, "know it all" tone. It is not my intent to make you feel bad in any way.
However, I think you really need an "Intervention" here and I hope you forgive me. (Note: others with good advice will certainly disagree with some of what I am about to say. I welcome all alternative viewpoints!)
Okay, taken seri atem with the time I have available:
"every shot i take i am analyzing all those points of training,"
*The most important information (included in the last 200-500 ms prior to the release of the shot) you are totally missing due to flash/boom/shock. You are 1) not "analyzing" as much as you think you are; and 2) probably not analyzing the most important things
"bullets cost money i dont waste any of them, thats why i usually only practice with what ammo im always going to use.a different ammo could mean a different outcome a different outcomes means a different perception of my training results. which changes my training practice."
*Train or practice with any halfway decent ammo (CCI Standard Velocity [blue box] is both cheap and accurate enough. Pretty much every point you made above is somewhat irrelevant to improving your actual shooting skills. The difference between $5 ammo and $15 ammo doesn't mean a hill of beans in terms of developing fundamental skills. As long as you aren't training with Remington Thunderbolt or some such, it just plain does not matter one bit. Anyhow, you shouldn't be doing all your "Training" [sic] with live ammo in the first place.
"( do u get what im trying too say?)."
*Yep.
" any way i never waste a bullet."
*Sorry. Seems to me like you are pretty much wasting all of your bullets.
"Because my time is precious i find that shooting live ammo always gives me a result that can be used in a calcalation, like math u shot then u have the answer, what factors i,e. grip stance etc .did u have in that equation that gave u that result, what did i change that gave me a different answer, or what did i do right to give me that perfect ten."
*Wasting your time. If you aren't focusing on BEHAVIORS you can analyze everything from the time of day to relative humidity and it won't matter. Yes, it is legitimate to apply Process Variability Reduction; yes, it is legitimate to measure/assess/analyze factors. But if you aren't measuring/assessing/analyzing the right things . . . you need to understand the fundamentals and develop a skillset in those before you should futz around with trivialities. Also- there is no possible way you are going to get any statistically significant results with what you are doing. The process is so noisy with "human behavior" that you will be unable to control for the confounds that provide the bulk of noise in the system. Be honest- have you yet found a statistically significant amount of variance in *any* of the factors under study?
" I cant do that with dry fire, dry fire is only practice too me,(with a little conditioning)."
*If you don't know what you are doing, dry fire is just as big a waste of time as live fire. That much is true.
" right now i need training,"
*Yep.
" pracice is for people that dont have an ego like mine, ( or have alot of time to kill)."
*Not sure what you mean by this; especially since what I maintain you are doing is "practice" (even with all your "data")
" I didnt realize that nygords notes had so much free pistol info in it, im reading them all tonight, the lighting and rear sight part was just what i was looking for. it actually has what i would call the formulas that i needed to solve the equation for the answers (shots) that i keep coming up with. ( i cant spell or type and my english skills suck , I know little about shooting ."
*Nygord's notes are good on very basic technical issues.
"but training ,statisics, math, conditioning and problem solving are my forte. each is used everytime i pull a trigger. i hope u made it through this but just trying too make a point "
*Good luck. Welcome to a beautiful obsession. Hope you stick with it. My "bottom line advice" would be to bone up on "The Shot Process" and what it takes to deliver a ten fairly soon. I think you will be surprised. Put your analytical skills to use where they will make a difference. But you need to know where that is first. I'm not sure you understand the process well enough yet.
Steve Swartz
Buckle your seat belt, put on a really thick skin, and prepare for some "forthright" (some might say "Harsh") feedback. I will apologize in advance for my arrogant, "know it all" tone. It is not my intent to make you feel bad in any way.
However, I think you really need an "Intervention" here and I hope you forgive me. (Note: others with good advice will certainly disagree with some of what I am about to say. I welcome all alternative viewpoints!)
Okay, taken seri atem with the time I have available:
"every shot i take i am analyzing all those points of training,"
*The most important information (included in the last 200-500 ms prior to the release of the shot) you are totally missing due to flash/boom/shock. You are 1) not "analyzing" as much as you think you are; and 2) probably not analyzing the most important things
"bullets cost money i dont waste any of them, thats why i usually only practice with what ammo im always going to use.a different ammo could mean a different outcome a different outcomes means a different perception of my training results. which changes my training practice."
*Train or practice with any halfway decent ammo (CCI Standard Velocity [blue box] is both cheap and accurate enough. Pretty much every point you made above is somewhat irrelevant to improving your actual shooting skills. The difference between $5 ammo and $15 ammo doesn't mean a hill of beans in terms of developing fundamental skills. As long as you aren't training with Remington Thunderbolt or some such, it just plain does not matter one bit. Anyhow, you shouldn't be doing all your "Training" [sic] with live ammo in the first place.
"( do u get what im trying too say?)."
*Yep.
" any way i never waste a bullet."
*Sorry. Seems to me like you are pretty much wasting all of your bullets.
"Because my time is precious i find that shooting live ammo always gives me a result that can be used in a calcalation, like math u shot then u have the answer, what factors i,e. grip stance etc .did u have in that equation that gave u that result, what did i change that gave me a different answer, or what did i do right to give me that perfect ten."
*Wasting your time. If you aren't focusing on BEHAVIORS you can analyze everything from the time of day to relative humidity and it won't matter. Yes, it is legitimate to apply Process Variability Reduction; yes, it is legitimate to measure/assess/analyze factors. But if you aren't measuring/assessing/analyzing the right things . . . you need to understand the fundamentals and develop a skillset in those before you should futz around with trivialities. Also- there is no possible way you are going to get any statistically significant results with what you are doing. The process is so noisy with "human behavior" that you will be unable to control for the confounds that provide the bulk of noise in the system. Be honest- have you yet found a statistically significant amount of variance in *any* of the factors under study?
" I cant do that with dry fire, dry fire is only practice too me,(with a little conditioning)."
*If you don't know what you are doing, dry fire is just as big a waste of time as live fire. That much is true.
" right now i need training,"
*Yep.
" pracice is for people that dont have an ego like mine, ( or have alot of time to kill)."
*Not sure what you mean by this; especially since what I maintain you are doing is "practice" (even with all your "data")
" I didnt realize that nygords notes had so much free pistol info in it, im reading them all tonight, the lighting and rear sight part was just what i was looking for. it actually has what i would call the formulas that i needed to solve the equation for the answers (shots) that i keep coming up with. ( i cant spell or type and my english skills suck , I know little about shooting ."
*Nygord's notes are good on very basic technical issues.
"but training ,statisics, math, conditioning and problem solving are my forte. each is used everytime i pull a trigger. i hope u made it through this but just trying too make a point "
*Good luck. Welcome to a beautiful obsession. Hope you stick with it. My "bottom line advice" would be to bone up on "The Shot Process" and what it takes to deliver a ten fairly soon. I think you will be surprised. Put your analytical skills to use where they will make a difference. But you need to know where that is first. I'm not sure you understand the process well enough yet.
Steve Swartz
David; For most shooters who pick up a free pistol for the first time there ia a temptation to shoot as light a trigger as possible. For the first few occasions this can seem successful. But if you are transitioning from a Standard pistol let's say which has a 1000 gr. trigger and start into Free Pistol with a moderate 100 gram trigger this is a big drop in the amount of "finger sensitivity" which you will feel from the trigger blade. I would recommend maybe 100 grams for a spell until you develop a better feel for the trigger blade. You should be able to touch the trigger while on aim comfortably and be able to apply pressure at this point with some conscience effort. You should also be able to take you finger off without an inadvertant shot. In the long run you will find that your sensativity to the trigger will grow and thus the weight of the let off will decrease. It is much better to have control with a " heavier" trigger than little control with a light one" . Happy shooting. Greg Derr
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
training
i dont shot against a blank surface, so i guess im not training at all, ive only had my gun for 4 weeks, its my second gun, I just shot my first match with it after traveling since 3;30 in the morning , I had a few sun problems cost me maybe 10 points. I still manged a 533, ( i cant wait too start training) reread all my posts steve, what did i say besides the fact that i never shot againt a blank wall to get u riding my ass. i didnt say it was a dumb idea or that i even disagreed with it. i guess i should have told you.. that since u suggested it i was going too try it as often as i could. thats what im going too do.. sorry i didnt tell u that. but besids that i guess im going too keep frailing away. david
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
David
Well done on you score for your first match. 533 is an incredibly good socre for a first match.
Steve is offering advice from his point of view, it doesn't mean that it will suit you. If everyone did the same thing we would possibly all shoot the same scores.
From my experience it pays to listen to what everyone has to say and then take the key points that relate to your situation and analyse whether it could make a difference, if it can then find a way of incorporating it into your training.
All the best
Mikey
Well done on you score for your first match. 533 is an incredibly good socre for a first match.
Steve is offering advice from his point of view, it doesn't mean that it will suit you. If everyone did the same thing we would possibly all shoot the same scores.
From my experience it pays to listen to what everyone has to say and then take the key points that relate to your situation and analyse whether it could make a difference, if it can then find a way of incorporating it into your training.
All the best
Mikey
Re: training
Steve, from David's reply above it's obvious that what he really wanted was confirmation that what he is doing and thinking is right. He really doesn't want help he wants people to agree with him.david alaways wrote:i dont shot against a blank surface, so i guess im not training at all, ive only had my gun for 4 weeks, its my second gun, I just shot my first match with it after traveling since 3;30 in the morning , I had a few sun problems cost me maybe 10 points. I still manged a 533, ( i cant wait too start training) reread all my posts steve, what did i say besides the fact that i never shot againt a blank wall to get u riding my ass. i didnt say it was a dumb idea or that i even disagreed with it. i guess i should have told you.. that since u suggested it i was going too try it as often as i could. thats what im going too do.. sorry i didnt tell u that. but besids that i guess im going too keep frailing away. david
Hi,
Steve, your advisees are not wasted. I will take them to my heart during the winter to come.
Any one can shoot 550p free pistol (once) if he trains a lot.
I am more interested of the points beyond 550 and for that, one has to have a more scientific approach.
Today I ended up with 529 with one 79 series, (same ammo and same pistol all the way) I am sure that I could have done a better homework.
Kent
Steve, your advisees are not wasted. I will take them to my heart during the winter to come.
Any one can shoot 550p free pistol (once) if he trains a lot.
I am more interested of the points beyond 550 and for that, one has to have a more scientific approach.
Today I ended up with 529 with one 79 series, (same ammo and same pistol all the way) I am sure that I could have done a better homework.
Kent
Hi,
I found david alaways
on this page:
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... c&start=40
does this give you any "hint"
Kent
I found david alaways
on this page:
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... c&start=40
does this give you any "hint"
Kent
I think he needs some quality time with Chet.Reinhamre wrote:Hi,
I found david alaways
on this page:
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... c&start=40
does this give you any "hint"
Kent