Is there anyway to increase the sear enagement on a early model Hammerli 208 ( S/no 206** ) ?
From the 10P Files, it seem like the only adjustment available is the trigger weight. I would like to increase the sear enagement because the pistol have a tendancy to go "full auto" when the slide is release to chamber the 1st round.
I have checked for a stuck firing pin, and also check that firing pin spring is holding the firing pin in the rear position. The sear also appears to be catching when the hammer is cocked manually.
Any idea or suggestion will be welcome.
Thanks.
Sear adjustment for Hammerli 208
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
-
Steve Swartz
I recommend this is the kind of thing that should be addressed by factory certified, licensed gunsmith?
Larry Carter (Larry's Guns) in Portland, Maine if you are in the U.S.
If you are not in the U.S. then I don't know who would be best to fix this for you. Perhaps the Hammerli/Walther website lists factory-authorized contacts?
This may not be as simple as "sear engagement."
For your own safety and protection and the safety of other shooters, I humbly suggest this be addressed before shooting the pistol again.
Steve Swartz
Larry Carter (Larry's Guns) in Portland, Maine if you are in the U.S.
If you are not in the U.S. then I don't know who would be best to fix this for you. Perhaps the Hammerli/Walther website lists factory-authorized contacts?
This may not be as simple as "sear engagement."
For your own safety and protection and the safety of other shooters, I humbly suggest this be addressed before shooting the pistol again.
Steve Swartz
should have RTFM
Oops, should have RTFM, the manual for the 208 clearly stated that sear enagement is NOT user adjustable !
Anyway, a little background info, I realized of course that such a weapon should be sent to a gunsmith. However, due to local reg and other issues beyond my control, that is not going to happen.
If the gun cannot be made to function safely, it will most likely be return to the police for destruction. Which is a waste because as far as I can tell, the barrel is in good condition, and while the finishing is worn, there is a minimum of rust or corrosion. Also, fund is NOT available for a replacement so one less weapon means one less shoorter in the club can take up the sport.
Thank for taking time to reply.
Anyway, a little background info, I realized of course that such a weapon should be sent to a gunsmith. However, due to local reg and other issues beyond my control, that is not going to happen.
If the gun cannot be made to function safely, it will most likely be return to the police for destruction. Which is a waste because as far as I can tell, the barrel is in good condition, and while the finishing is worn, there is a minimum of rust or corrosion. Also, fund is NOT available for a replacement so one less weapon means one less shoorter in the club can take up the sport.
Thank for taking time to reply.
-
F. Paul in Denver
Wai,
I'm not sure if the law in Singapore permits you to ship the gun out of the country BUT before you even consider putting that beautiful piece of Swiss engineering in the police trash can, you should consider selling it. Obviously, you would have to disclose the problems it is having, but I'll bet there would be no shortage of people who would want to give it a good home.
While you will probably have to discount it because it doesnt function properly, you should at least be able to get something back for your investment. Even if you have to strip it down and sell it part by part on ebay, it would be better than just giving it to the local authorities for destruction. There is a huge market out there for spare 208 parts.
But before you give up on it:
You probably already know, the older Hammerli's like yours were built to last several life times. If you find you need parts to repair your 208, feel free to contact me and I'll see if I can track them down for you. My email address is paul@figlialaw.com
By the way, even though you indicate shipping your gun to Larrys Guns here in the USA for repair is not an option, you could try emailing Larry Carter if you have a question. He's a good guy and the US expert on the Hammerli line and I'm sure he would be willing to assist you however he can. You can contact him at www.larrysguns.com
Another option is to contact our board host Scott Pilkington. Scott sells plenty of Hammerlis and I know for a fact he gives them a thorough inspection before each sale and I would trust his advice.
Yet another option is to contact the Potters who are at least located in your hemisphere (Queensland, Australia). Their website can be accessed at: www.potfire.com.au The Potters are responsible for the sale and export of a significant number of Hammerlis all over the world when the Australian government tightened up the rules on handgun ownership a few years ago. Their website also has a ton of information on Hammerlis
Anyway, good luck to you and keep trying. Think of your Hammerli as a Ferrari that simply needs a minor tune up.
F. Paul in Denver, Colorado USA
I'm not sure if the law in Singapore permits you to ship the gun out of the country BUT before you even consider putting that beautiful piece of Swiss engineering in the police trash can, you should consider selling it. Obviously, you would have to disclose the problems it is having, but I'll bet there would be no shortage of people who would want to give it a good home.
While you will probably have to discount it because it doesnt function properly, you should at least be able to get something back for your investment. Even if you have to strip it down and sell it part by part on ebay, it would be better than just giving it to the local authorities for destruction. There is a huge market out there for spare 208 parts.
But before you give up on it:
You probably already know, the older Hammerli's like yours were built to last several life times. If you find you need parts to repair your 208, feel free to contact me and I'll see if I can track them down for you. My email address is paul@figlialaw.com
By the way, even though you indicate shipping your gun to Larrys Guns here in the USA for repair is not an option, you could try emailing Larry Carter if you have a question. He's a good guy and the US expert on the Hammerli line and I'm sure he would be willing to assist you however he can. You can contact him at www.larrysguns.com
Another option is to contact our board host Scott Pilkington. Scott sells plenty of Hammerlis and I know for a fact he gives them a thorough inspection before each sale and I would trust his advice.
Yet another option is to contact the Potters who are at least located in your hemisphere (Queensland, Australia). Their website can be accessed at: www.potfire.com.au The Potters are responsible for the sale and export of a significant number of Hammerlis all over the world when the Australian government tightened up the rules on handgun ownership a few years ago. Their website also has a ton of information on Hammerlis
Anyway, good luck to you and keep trying. Think of your Hammerli as a Ferrari that simply needs a minor tune up.
F. Paul in Denver, Colorado USA
Something to try
wai-
Since you have a beautiful and expensive boat anchor (Hammerli 208 that goes full auto), here is something to try before you throw it overboard (so to speak) -
I have an early model 208, the one with the selector screw to switch between 1000 and 1360 grams trigger weight. Its serial number is G254xx.
There is an adjustment screw that bears on the sear spring. Screwing it in (clockwise) increases force on the sear (and increases the trigger release weight) and unscrewing it (counter-clockwise) reduces force on the sear (and reduces the trigger release weight). This is not the recommended way to adjust the trigger release weight, of course. Perhaps a previous owner of your pistol, in a misguided attempt to reduce trigger pull, backed off the screw (counter-clockwise) to such an extent that there is no longer sufficient force against the sear to keep it engaged under the forces and vibrations associated with recoil?
The screw is located in the the magazine well, at the top, at the back. There is (in my pistol) a tiny locking screw to prevent the sear adjustment screw from drifting. The locking screw is located on the top of the frame, between the magazine well and the opening for the hammer. Undo the locking screw (by turning it counter-clockwise) before turning the sear spring screw. Turn the locking screw clockwise after you have adjusted the sear spring screw so that the latter will not drift out of adjustment. (Another possibility: Perhaps the locking screw in your pistol was not tightened sufficiently and the spring load on the sear was reduced as the adjustment screw backed off due to vibration).
In my pistol, the sear spring screw has about five threads exposed between the frame and the spring (about 2 to 3 mm). If your pistol has less than this, you could try increasing the force on the sear to see if this eliminates your "full-auto" problem. Turning the adjustment screw all the way in seems to prevent the sear from releasing at all. Presumably there is an optimum position for the screw, between fully in and fully out, but, other than by experimenting, I don't know where that would be.
I have copies of parts diagrams for two later versions of the 208. Both show the sear spring screw, but rather than the locking screw, the parts list calls off a pin. So, depending upon the version you have, perhaps there is a locking pin instead of a locking screw.
Anyway, hoping this will help with your problem.
Mike T.
Since you have a beautiful and expensive boat anchor (Hammerli 208 that goes full auto), here is something to try before you throw it overboard (so to speak) -
I have an early model 208, the one with the selector screw to switch between 1000 and 1360 grams trigger weight. Its serial number is G254xx.
There is an adjustment screw that bears on the sear spring. Screwing it in (clockwise) increases force on the sear (and increases the trigger release weight) and unscrewing it (counter-clockwise) reduces force on the sear (and reduces the trigger release weight). This is not the recommended way to adjust the trigger release weight, of course. Perhaps a previous owner of your pistol, in a misguided attempt to reduce trigger pull, backed off the screw (counter-clockwise) to such an extent that there is no longer sufficient force against the sear to keep it engaged under the forces and vibrations associated with recoil?
The screw is located in the the magazine well, at the top, at the back. There is (in my pistol) a tiny locking screw to prevent the sear adjustment screw from drifting. The locking screw is located on the top of the frame, between the magazine well and the opening for the hammer. Undo the locking screw (by turning it counter-clockwise) before turning the sear spring screw. Turn the locking screw clockwise after you have adjusted the sear spring screw so that the latter will not drift out of adjustment. (Another possibility: Perhaps the locking screw in your pistol was not tightened sufficiently and the spring load on the sear was reduced as the adjustment screw backed off due to vibration).
In my pistol, the sear spring screw has about five threads exposed between the frame and the spring (about 2 to 3 mm). If your pistol has less than this, you could try increasing the force on the sear to see if this eliminates your "full-auto" problem. Turning the adjustment screw all the way in seems to prevent the sear from releasing at all. Presumably there is an optimum position for the screw, between fully in and fully out, but, other than by experimenting, I don't know where that would be.
I have copies of parts diagrams for two later versions of the 208. Both show the sear spring screw, but rather than the locking screw, the parts list calls off a pin. So, depending upon the version you have, perhaps there is a locking pin instead of a locking screw.
Anyway, hoping this will help with your problem.
Mike T.
-
Ed Hall
Hi wai,
I don't know the specific differences between the 208 and 208s, but my information is 208s oriented.
First, I would suggest making sure all the fired rounds have a proper firing pin mark on them. The slide face can peen on the 208/208s and close up the cutout for the case rim. With a rimfire gun, this can cause slam firing. If your "full-auto" spent cases do have the proper firing pin hit, then you might even check to make sure the firing pin isn't broken (thus floating). I suppose there's also a remote possibility that the extractor can be causing the ignition, but I'd rate that pretty low on the list. After those checks, I'd look toward the hammer/sear as the probable culprit.
The sear and hammer interface angles are cut such that the normal operation of pulling the trigger causes the hammer to travel slightly further back before releasing. This action should prevent the hammer from being able to release by itself unless the hammer hook, sear edge or both are rounded over due to wear, or the hammer has been modified to get a crisper trigger. In either event, my first suggestion is to get another hammer and sear for the gun. These are not cheap, but they are a lot less expensive than the complete gun (and shouldn't be as regulated). To remove the hammer and sear you will need a GOOD quality drift pin punch (of proper size for each, or at least for the sear pin, which is smaller and harder to drift), preferably with a concave tip. Drift the hammer and sear pins out toward the left (side with slide stop) using a block to support the frame. To reassemble, check the ends of the pins and insert the chamfered end first from the left side.
You might consider just sending the original hammer and sear (and/or slide) to a Hammerli Service point for review. Of course being in the US, I work with Larry Carter of Larry's Guns, but you may have another Service point easier to get to. In case you want to contact Larry Carter, you can reach him at info@larrysguns.com. You can even mention my name and he shouldn't charge you too much extra for it.<smile> I haven't checked lately, but the US prices were pretty steep a couple years ago. The set could quite possibly run better than US $250. If the slide has been peened, it is a rather simple task for a Service Point (with the proper tool) to recut the recess.
As to the sear spring mentioned by Mike T., the proper tension for that spring is 1000 grams, but I'm not positive of the measurement point. I use the sear tab where the trigger bar contacts it as my mesurement point.
If you do get another hammer and sear set, be sure to get some moly lube (without graphite) to use in the contact area. This will help prevent premature wear. I have a page that describes "Cleaning and Adjustments for the Hammerli 208s" at:
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/hammerli208sca.html
The notes at the above link were provided to me by Larry Carter. Let us know how things turn out.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
I don't know the specific differences between the 208 and 208s, but my information is 208s oriented.
First, I would suggest making sure all the fired rounds have a proper firing pin mark on them. The slide face can peen on the 208/208s and close up the cutout for the case rim. With a rimfire gun, this can cause slam firing. If your "full-auto" spent cases do have the proper firing pin hit, then you might even check to make sure the firing pin isn't broken (thus floating). I suppose there's also a remote possibility that the extractor can be causing the ignition, but I'd rate that pretty low on the list. After those checks, I'd look toward the hammer/sear as the probable culprit.
The sear and hammer interface angles are cut such that the normal operation of pulling the trigger causes the hammer to travel slightly further back before releasing. This action should prevent the hammer from being able to release by itself unless the hammer hook, sear edge or both are rounded over due to wear, or the hammer has been modified to get a crisper trigger. In either event, my first suggestion is to get another hammer and sear for the gun. These are not cheap, but they are a lot less expensive than the complete gun (and shouldn't be as regulated). To remove the hammer and sear you will need a GOOD quality drift pin punch (of proper size for each, or at least for the sear pin, which is smaller and harder to drift), preferably with a concave tip. Drift the hammer and sear pins out toward the left (side with slide stop) using a block to support the frame. To reassemble, check the ends of the pins and insert the chamfered end first from the left side.
You might consider just sending the original hammer and sear (and/or slide) to a Hammerli Service point for review. Of course being in the US, I work with Larry Carter of Larry's Guns, but you may have another Service point easier to get to. In case you want to contact Larry Carter, you can reach him at info@larrysguns.com. You can even mention my name and he shouldn't charge you too much extra for it.<smile> I haven't checked lately, but the US prices were pretty steep a couple years ago. The set could quite possibly run better than US $250. If the slide has been peened, it is a rather simple task for a Service Point (with the proper tool) to recut the recess.
As to the sear spring mentioned by Mike T., the proper tension for that spring is 1000 grams, but I'm not positive of the measurement point. I use the sear tab where the trigger bar contacts it as my mesurement point.
If you do get another hammer and sear set, be sure to get some moly lube (without graphite) to use in the contact area. This will help prevent premature wear. I have a page that describes "Cleaning and Adjustments for the Hammerli 208s" at:
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/hammerli208sca.html
The notes at the above link were provided to me by Larry Carter. Let us know how things turn out.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
Once again, let me thank everyone for taking time to help me out.
I have taken a closer look at the 208 manual and it seem to me that the trigger weight == sear enagement pressure. If this is true, then my course of action come this weekend would be :
(1) de-grease the sear
(2) increase the trigger weight
This gun is a club weapon so it is quite posssible someone have taken the trigger weight down too low or "soak" the whole gun in lube to "get a smoother" trigger.
By the way, can I use Birchwood Casey Moly Lube on the sear and other trigger component ?
I am in the tropic, so metal will corrode very fast without protection.
I will provide a update this Saturday when I have a chance to work on the gun again.
- wai
I have taken a closer look at the 208 manual and it seem to me that the trigger weight == sear enagement pressure. If this is true, then my course of action come this weekend would be :
(1) de-grease the sear
(2) increase the trigger weight
This gun is a club weapon so it is quite posssible someone have taken the trigger weight down too low or "soak" the whole gun in lube to "get a smoother" trigger.
By the way, can I use Birchwood Casey Moly Lube on the sear and other trigger component ?
I am in the tropic, so metal will corrode very fast without protection.
I will provide a update this Saturday when I have a chance to work on the gun again.
- wai
-
Ed Hall
Hi wai,
The Birchwood Casey Moly Lube looks fine. Larry Carter recommends Breakfree CLP for most of the lubrication, and Moly Lube for the sear/hammer and three spots on the trigger bar: trigger post, sear contact and the post that provides slide contact. Also note that instead of dripping the CLP into the other spots, he recommends applying it by dampening a cotton swab to lightly coat the areas. I personally fold a cleaning patch to create a fairly solid tip and use that.
Now to some technical details about the sear:
The area of contact with the hammer hook, in a new sear, has a finely etched crosshatch pattern. This pattern provides a trap for the moly lube. Oils and flushing type cleaners that remove that lube will allow the crosshatch pattern to wear. The result is a gritty or rough feeling pull. A new gun has a pretty smooth feel to its trigger. If you remove the sear and look at it under magnification, you can see the crosshatch pattern in the surface. I look at mine with a 10x loupe on occasion. A new sear will show the full surface as one pattern. A worn sear can show a definite change where the hammer hook rides. I don't know of any effective way to reinstate that crosshatch properly, once it's been worn.
Good luck with getting it back in shape. I look forward to hearing your report.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
The Birchwood Casey Moly Lube looks fine. Larry Carter recommends Breakfree CLP for most of the lubrication, and Moly Lube for the sear/hammer and three spots on the trigger bar: trigger post, sear contact and the post that provides slide contact. Also note that instead of dripping the CLP into the other spots, he recommends applying it by dampening a cotton swab to lightly coat the areas. I personally fold a cleaning patch to create a fairly solid tip and use that.
Now to some technical details about the sear:
The area of contact with the hammer hook, in a new sear, has a finely etched crosshatch pattern. This pattern provides a trap for the moly lube. Oils and flushing type cleaners that remove that lube will allow the crosshatch pattern to wear. The result is a gritty or rough feeling pull. A new gun has a pretty smooth feel to its trigger. If you remove the sear and look at it under magnification, you can see the crosshatch pattern in the surface. I look at mine with a 10x loupe on occasion. A new sear will show the full surface as one pattern. A worn sear can show a definite change where the hammer hook rides. I don't know of any effective way to reinstate that crosshatch properly, once it's been worn.
Good luck with getting it back in shape. I look forward to hearing your report.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
Wai, take a closer look at the pistol, are not there two independent screws, one for the weight, and one for the sear engagement, one inside the other? This is the trick Hammerli sometimes used in the past. Maybe not this time ...wai wrote: I have taken a closer look at the 208 manual and it seem to me that the trigger weight == sear engagement pressure