Look at the top 8 photos for AP from ISSF.tv for Zagreb, it seems that the Steyr LP10 is dominating.
In women's AP: 7 out of 8 uses Steyr
In men's AP: 4 out of 8 uses Steyr
I could remember when the entire line would be Morinis... what happened? Pure coincidence?
Of course I know that it isn't the gun, it is the user, but still, those numbers are... not representative of what I imagined the market shares are like for Steyr and Morini.
Steyr rules???
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Re: Steyr rules???
Two thoughts:trinity wrote:Look at the top 8 photos for AP from ISSF.tv for Zagreb, it seems that the Steyr LP10 is dominating.
In women's AP: 7 out of 8 uses Steyr
In men's AP: 4 out of 8 uses Steyr
I could remember when the entire line would be Morinis... what happened? Pure coincidence?
Of course I know that it isn't the gun, it is the user, but still, those numbers are... not representative of what I imagined the market shares are like for Steyr and Morini.
1. Nobody wants to repeat Steve Swartz' battery experience. :-)
2. Grip adjustability is the dominant selection factor, not trigger action.
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Steve Swartz
Is 4 out of 8 really a drop-off for Morini from last ten years?
Fred- not just "grip" adjustability but grip, trigger, etc. etc. adjustability are better on the Steyr. Much better ergonomics overall.
On many criteria the Steyr is the better gun.
But even if you concede (for the purpose of discussion) that the Morini was a "Better" gun (on some critical dimension). How long would it take to knock off the Steyr?
Consider who was in the finals, how long have they been shooting, and what have they been shooting all along (and why). [Sure, and what kind of national team deals they have with various companies . . . which can also be a significant equipment selection criteria; all others things being relatively equal.]
In high power rifle the old-timers shot old-timers rifles (the M1A/M14) for years after a (much) better gun was available. The lag time for adoption of the AR15 was due to learning curve. The old-timers didn't start shooting the AR15 until they started getting beat by less experienced, arguably not as skilled, shooters toting the new rifle.
And that was for a huge difference in quality of the equipment. Between the Morini and the Steyr, the differences aren't that great.
If the Morini represented a slight but significant advantage, it would take *generations* for it to replace the Steyr.
What do coaches (frequently, by definition, "old-timers") recommend to their juniors? Why, the M1A/M14 of course . . . and the cycle continues.
Steve Swartz
Fred- not just "grip" adjustability but grip, trigger, etc. etc. adjustability are better on the Steyr. Much better ergonomics overall.
On many criteria the Steyr is the better gun.
But even if you concede (for the purpose of discussion) that the Morini was a "Better" gun (on some critical dimension). How long would it take to knock off the Steyr?
Consider who was in the finals, how long have they been shooting, and what have they been shooting all along (and why). [Sure, and what kind of national team deals they have with various companies . . . which can also be a significant equipment selection criteria; all others things being relatively equal.]
In high power rifle the old-timers shot old-timers rifles (the M1A/M14) for years after a (much) better gun was available. The lag time for adoption of the AR15 was due to learning curve. The old-timers didn't start shooting the AR15 until they started getting beat by less experienced, arguably not as skilled, shooters toting the new rifle.
And that was for a huge difference in quality of the equipment. Between the Morini and the Steyr, the differences aren't that great.
If the Morini represented a slight but significant advantage, it would take *generations* for it to replace the Steyr.
What do coaches (frequently, by definition, "old-timers") recommend to their juniors? Why, the M1A/M14 of course . . . and the cycle continues.
Steve Swartz
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_trinity_
Regarding the LP10's adjustability... I have an LP10 as well as two Morinis, a long and a short. Currently I am shooting the short as my primary.
I shot the Steyr for about a year and a half, and although I shot some decent scores with it, I found that at the end of the day, I ended up not using much of the adjustable elements. ie: I first started with rotating the grip, as well as changing the rake angle, and fiddling with the trigger, but eventually, I reset everything to inline with the barrel, because all those rotational adjustments lead to a non straight back vector when you apply trigger force.
So if you take the grip and trigger rotation adjustments away from Steyr, what else is different from the Morini? Not a heck of a lot.
Anyway, at the end of the day, I am sure good technique is good techinque, regardless of which gun is used. It is just surprising seeing the finals line of women's AP at the WCH to be almost all Steyr. I suspect Francesco must have a heart attack seeing that! :-p
-trin
I shot the Steyr for about a year and a half, and although I shot some decent scores with it, I found that at the end of the day, I ended up not using much of the adjustable elements. ie: I first started with rotating the grip, as well as changing the rake angle, and fiddling with the trigger, but eventually, I reset everything to inline with the barrel, because all those rotational adjustments lead to a non straight back vector when you apply trigger force.
So if you take the grip and trigger rotation adjustments away from Steyr, what else is different from the Morini? Not a heck of a lot.
Anyway, at the end of the day, I am sure good technique is good techinque, regardless of which gun is used. It is just surprising seeing the finals line of women's AP at the WCH to be almost all Steyr. I suspect Francesco must have a heart attack seeing that! :-p
-trin
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pilkguns in Germany
the numbers have always been in Steyrs court, The LP1 and the LP10 have been the dominant AP for going on 18 years now. pretty amazing really. Morini has really come on strong in recent years, and took the second place position away from Feinwerkbau and pushing Steyr for top dog. Most matches you go to, it will be 50-55% Steyr, 45-50% Morini, and everybody else together less than 5%.
Re: Steyr rules???
If you look at finals OK, but I want to remember that Morini got 2 place at men event and at women the australian girls was first until she shoots 7.6 so. But I prefer to have a look at partecipants:
Men: 134 shooters - 58 Morini (43.3%), 47 Steyr (35%)
Men Junior: 79 shooters - 25 Morini (31.6%), 36 Steyr (45.6%)
Women: 117 shooters - 27 Morini (23.1%), 58 Steyr (49.6%)
Women Junior: 71 shooters - 21 Morini (29.6%), 32 Steyr (45.1%)
Free Pistol: 60 shooters - 34 Morini (56.7%), 25 TOZ (41.7%)
And if you look at our medals on our web www.morini.ch I must say we are not unhappy.
From the number of partecipants we are getting year by year more shooters and this is important for me
Good is that Morini and Steyr make 75% of the shooters, this means that both are good pistols.
In free pistol there is no compare. TOZ is going down every competition. The only no Morini shooter in Finale, Isakov, got his Morini in January this year but the trainer sad no change before WCH (only US Team use more TOZ than Morini ?)
Men: 134 shooters - 58 Morini (43.3%), 47 Steyr (35%)
Men Junior: 79 shooters - 25 Morini (31.6%), 36 Steyr (45.6%)
Women: 117 shooters - 27 Morini (23.1%), 58 Steyr (49.6%)
Women Junior: 71 shooters - 21 Morini (29.6%), 32 Steyr (45.1%)
Free Pistol: 60 shooters - 34 Morini (56.7%), 25 TOZ (41.7%)
And if you look at our medals on our web www.morini.ch I must say we are not unhappy.
From the number of partecipants we are getting year by year more shooters and this is important for me
Good is that Morini and Steyr make 75% of the shooters, this means that both are good pistols.
In free pistol there is no compare. TOZ is going down every competition. The only no Morini shooter in Finale, Isakov, got his Morini in January this year but the trainer sad no change before WCH (only US Team use more TOZ than Morini ?)