When you shoot, is your elbow supposed to be locked?
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When you shoot, is your elbow supposed to be locked?
Or do you use muscle tension to keep it from locking?
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Steve Swartz
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Steve Swartz
First, I'm not *that* kind of doctor. Therefore, my opinion is totally uninformed and I recommend you talk to an MD, DO, or even chiropractor (maybe a physical therapist?) and ask your question there.
However, my $0.02 anyways:
It sure seems like it would (cause problems), doesn't it?
However, look around at the old timers who have been shooting 45s this way for decades.
A few of them have "Tennis Elbow" but that's caused by a different set of issues.
Nobody that I am aware of has had any problems directly attributable to the "locked" elbow.
Again, talk to a qulaified professional about this if you have concerns.
Steve Swartz
However, my $0.02 anyways:
It sure seems like it would (cause problems), doesn't it?
However, look around at the old timers who have been shooting 45s this way for decades.
A few of them have "Tennis Elbow" but that's caused by a different set of issues.
Nobody that I am aware of has had any problems directly attributable to the "locked" elbow.
Again, talk to a qulaified professional about this if you have concerns.
Steve Swartz
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Steve Swartz
James:
Sorry- but this is still bugging me a little bit.
I'm not even sure what a "locked" elbow is or means to you. Please clear this up for our discussion?
Try this test- you sould be able to rotate your arm such that the line running through your elbow "pivot/hinge" can rotate, all while keeping your shoulder and hand in the "shooting position."
I can rotate my elbow pivot line from pretty much straight up and down to about 15 degrees beyond horizontal. All while keeping front sights aligned and not canted in any way.
However, my natural point of aim stance grip etc. results in my elbow pivot line being around 45 degrees.
I went to the range the other day and noticed that different people have a different "natural" angle for the pivot line when they shoot. A couple of folks hold their elbows almost straight up and down. A couple held their elbows almost flat.
I'm thinking that the people who hold their elbows almost flat are doing what you call "locking" their elbows. None of them tightened up their biceps to "unlock" the joint; from their biceps to forearms they had a slight negative bend (joint "over extended?").
People with a vertical or at least non-horizontal pivot line don't have this "lock-unlock" issue at all I don't think- and these are the majority of people?
Do you hold your elbow flat or even beyond flat? Is that what you mean by a "locked elbow?"
Steve Swartz
Sorry- but this is still bugging me a little bit.
I'm not even sure what a "locked" elbow is or means to you. Please clear this up for our discussion?
Try this test- you sould be able to rotate your arm such that the line running through your elbow "pivot/hinge" can rotate, all while keeping your shoulder and hand in the "shooting position."
I can rotate my elbow pivot line from pretty much straight up and down to about 15 degrees beyond horizontal. All while keeping front sights aligned and not canted in any way.
However, my natural point of aim stance grip etc. results in my elbow pivot line being around 45 degrees.
I went to the range the other day and noticed that different people have a different "natural" angle for the pivot line when they shoot. A couple of folks hold their elbows almost straight up and down. A couple held their elbows almost flat.
I'm thinking that the people who hold their elbows almost flat are doing what you call "locking" their elbows. None of them tightened up their biceps to "unlock" the joint; from their biceps to forearms they had a slight negative bend (joint "over extended?").
People with a vertical or at least non-horizontal pivot line don't have this "lock-unlock" issue at all I don't think- and these are the majority of people?
Do you hold your elbow flat or even beyond flat? Is that what you mean by a "locked elbow?"
Steve Swartz
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Guest
i noticed that if the inner part of the elbow is pointing skywards there will be a pain after prolonged shooting. if it is tuned 90 degrees inwards ie point to the left(if you shoot right handed). it is alot more comfortable on the elbow joint but it becomes harder to lock the wrist.
so to "compromise" i turn it at about 45 degrees. i find that this is more of a win win as its alot easier to lock my wrist and i no longer experience any pain in the elbow.
one thing i learnt the hard way is that when you rotate the elbow make sure that you dont unintentionally hyper extend the shoulder.
so to "compromise" i turn it at about 45 degrees. i find that this is more of a win win as its alot easier to lock my wrist and i no longer experience any pain in the elbow.
one thing i learnt the hard way is that when you rotate the elbow make sure that you dont unintentionally hyper extend the shoulder.
The terminology is getting fuzzy, but i'll try to answer as best as I understand.
With my arm straight out in shooting position, I can rotate my arm/elbow with the shooting hand and shoulder still in place like you described.
My natural angle is about 45 degrees also.
But no matter what position of rotation my elbow is in, when I relax my muscles, there is a negative angle of bend in my arm.
The same way when your standing straight up with knees soft, and when your knees are locked. When they are locked, they have a negative bend.
I'm not sure if it's over extended, or if thats how my arms are naturally, but most other shooters dont have this. Perhaps my elbow has a wider degree of movement? I noticed that the only other shooters with the negative angle in their elbow were other junior pistol shooters.
After a long match, I feel discomfort in my elbow (not pain just kind of tired sore feeling) from supporting the weight of the pistol in the direction the elbow is not supposed to bend.
Its like standing with your knees locked for a long time.
I have a negative angle like this guy
This guy has a very positive angle.
With my arm straight out in shooting position, I can rotate my arm/elbow with the shooting hand and shoulder still in place like you described.
My natural angle is about 45 degrees also.
But no matter what position of rotation my elbow is in, when I relax my muscles, there is a negative angle of bend in my arm.
The same way when your standing straight up with knees soft, and when your knees are locked. When they are locked, they have a negative bend.
I'm not sure if it's over extended, or if thats how my arms are naturally, but most other shooters dont have this. Perhaps my elbow has a wider degree of movement? I noticed that the only other shooters with the negative angle in their elbow were other junior pistol shooters.
After a long match, I feel discomfort in my elbow (not pain just kind of tired sore feeling) from supporting the weight of the pistol in the direction the elbow is not supposed to bend.
Its like standing with your knees locked for a long time.
I have a negative angle like this guy
This guy has a very positive angle.
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Elliott
"stiff arm" question from James
Steve S,
In regards to James' question about stiffness of the shooting arm:
When you were in the Air Force, especially as a newbie, when you came to "Attention", wasn't there a position called "the brace". ( I've seen it in cadets at both the Military Academy and Air Force Academy). Essentially, a very rigid position of attention where every joint/bone/ligament/tendon is locked into a extreme case of rigidity? Vis-a-vis shooting, isn't there a difference in holding one's shooting arm (ie., shoulder,elbow, wrist) "steady" as compared to rigidly locking all the components into an "iron bar", which is the equivalent of a cantilevered lever arm with hinge point as far from the proximal end as possible? Wouldn't just thinking about maintaining such a rigid hold distract one's mind from the sight picture and perfect trigger break?
Elliott
In regards to James' question about stiffness of the shooting arm:
When you were in the Air Force, especially as a newbie, when you came to "Attention", wasn't there a position called "the brace". ( I've seen it in cadets at both the Military Academy and Air Force Academy). Essentially, a very rigid position of attention where every joint/bone/ligament/tendon is locked into a extreme case of rigidity? Vis-a-vis shooting, isn't there a difference in holding one's shooting arm (ie., shoulder,elbow, wrist) "steady" as compared to rigidly locking all the components into an "iron bar", which is the equivalent of a cantilevered lever arm with hinge point as far from the proximal end as possible? Wouldn't just thinking about maintaining such a rigid hold distract one's mind from the sight picture and perfect trigger break?
Elliott
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Steve Swartz
James:
Hey, that top guy with the "negative angle" is me! I have always had that configuration of my shooting shoulder/arm/elbow/hand. I have had a couple of different stances (open vs. closed), but my elbow has always pretty much looked like that.
That guy with the "positive angle" (not sure who it is) appears to be using quite a bit of muscular tension to keep his elbow like that.
We both appear to have about the same "rotational angle" on our elbow joint- he seems to be around 35 degrees while I look a little flatter at maybe 50 degrees.
So those are a good comparison of what we're talking about, thanks. I can tell you about my experiences. I started shooting competitively in 1998 at the age of 38 in "Bullseye Pistol" with .22 and .45 caliber guns. From 1998 through 2003 I pretty much shot this style, consuming around 8,000 rounds of .45 ACP and about half that of .22 per year. I competed 15-20 matches a year and trained my ass off during that time. In addition I shot a moderate amount (1,000/yr) of "hardball" .45 ACP and then 9mm in service pistol matches. In 2003/2004 I began transitioning to International style pistol where my rounds fired has probably gone up- but it's mainly air pistol with about a quarter that amount in free pistol.
So did I wreck my arm? No. I am shooting pain free (well, elbow-wise) after hyper-extending my elbow for 8 years of relatively "high density" shooting.
I did have a bout of "Tennis Elbow" in 2001 season; this was actually a re-inflamation of a previous injury. The inflamed tendons on the top/outside of my shooting elbow is currently being managed with the judicial application of ibuprofen as a preventive measure. I used to take chondroitin/glucosamine supplements for a while but currently do not.
Well, o.k., that's my story. Since I had the tennis elbow *before* I started shooting, I can't honestly say to what degree "locking" my elbow either contributed to/caused any elbow inflamation I may have had in the past.
Right now, elbow-wise, I'm a 46 year old guy shooting pain free at a fairly high volume . . . .
Steve Swartz
Hey, that top guy with the "negative angle" is me! I have always had that configuration of my shooting shoulder/arm/elbow/hand. I have had a couple of different stances (open vs. closed), but my elbow has always pretty much looked like that.
That guy with the "positive angle" (not sure who it is) appears to be using quite a bit of muscular tension to keep his elbow like that.
We both appear to have about the same "rotational angle" on our elbow joint- he seems to be around 35 degrees while I look a little flatter at maybe 50 degrees.
So those are a good comparison of what we're talking about, thanks. I can tell you about my experiences. I started shooting competitively in 1998 at the age of 38 in "Bullseye Pistol" with .22 and .45 caliber guns. From 1998 through 2003 I pretty much shot this style, consuming around 8,000 rounds of .45 ACP and about half that of .22 per year. I competed 15-20 matches a year and trained my ass off during that time. In addition I shot a moderate amount (1,000/yr) of "hardball" .45 ACP and then 9mm in service pistol matches. In 2003/2004 I began transitioning to International style pistol where my rounds fired has probably gone up- but it's mainly air pistol with about a quarter that amount in free pistol.
So did I wreck my arm? No. I am shooting pain free (well, elbow-wise) after hyper-extending my elbow for 8 years of relatively "high density" shooting.
I did have a bout of "Tennis Elbow" in 2001 season; this was actually a re-inflamation of a previous injury. The inflamed tendons on the top/outside of my shooting elbow is currently being managed with the judicial application of ibuprofen as a preventive measure. I used to take chondroitin/glucosamine supplements for a while but currently do not.
Well, o.k., that's my story. Since I had the tennis elbow *before* I started shooting, I can't honestly say to what degree "locking" my elbow either contributed to/caused any elbow inflamation I may have had in the past.
Right now, elbow-wise, I'm a 46 year old guy shooting pain free at a fairly high volume . . . .
Steve Swartz
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Steve Swartz
Elliott:
Yeah, we were told not to "Lock Our Knees" on the parade field for extended periods of time or we would pass out.
I always figured this was just another "Military Old Wive's (Sarge's) Tale." I just stood at attention/parade rest "naturally" and never could figure out how to "lock my knees" in the first place.
Never passed out- even with locked knees (?)- even during hour-long Lackland (San Antonio TX) summer retirement ceremonies . . .
As to the shooting aspect of it- here's my bottom line: Don't Use Muscular Tension. Don't use muscular tension to "Lock" your elbow OR to keep it "Unlocked."
I just let it hang "naturally." According to the photographic evidence (Thank James!) "naturally" for me means the elbow appears to bend beyond straight- and the forearm "hangs down."
Per previous EMail, can't say if this had any effect on my pre-existing predilection for tennis elbow. I've had recurring tendonitis in my right arm since, well, 1978 (high school tennis team). Tell you what though- shooting bothers it a whole lot less than a bunch of other sports activities I've competed in over the years!
Steve Swartz
Yeah, we were told not to "Lock Our Knees" on the parade field for extended periods of time or we would pass out.
I always figured this was just another "Military Old Wive's (Sarge's) Tale." I just stood at attention/parade rest "naturally" and never could figure out how to "lock my knees" in the first place.
Never passed out- even with locked knees (?)- even during hour-long Lackland (San Antonio TX) summer retirement ceremonies . . .
As to the shooting aspect of it- here's my bottom line: Don't Use Muscular Tension. Don't use muscular tension to "Lock" your elbow OR to keep it "Unlocked."
I just let it hang "naturally." According to the photographic evidence (Thank James!) "naturally" for me means the elbow appears to bend beyond straight- and the forearm "hangs down."
Per previous EMail, can't say if this had any effect on my pre-existing predilection for tennis elbow. I've had recurring tendonitis in my right arm since, well, 1978 (high school tennis team). Tell you what though- shooting bothers it a whole lot less than a bunch of other sports activities I've competed in over the years!
Steve Swartz
Ok, thanks for answering my questions!
Hehe, what a coincidence, I picked the guy that looked like he knew what he was doing.
I've just started free pistol, and my coach has aquired a pardini pgp 75 for me. But he dosnt have any knowledge about the free pistol discipline, and I have a few questions.
The trigger is single stage and very light, under 300g. How do you go about with trigger control? Do I start to touch the trigger as I raise the gun? or after it is on target?
I'm not used to the weight yet, as it's quite a bit heavier then my airpistol. Should I leave the external weights on, or sacrifice stability, and take them off?
Are the other principles pretty much the same as airpistol?
Hehe, what a coincidence, I picked the guy that looked like he knew what he was doing.
I've just started free pistol, and my coach has aquired a pardini pgp 75 for me. But he dosnt have any knowledge about the free pistol discipline, and I have a few questions.
The trigger is single stage and very light, under 300g. How do you go about with trigger control? Do I start to touch the trigger as I raise the gun? or after it is on target?
I'm not used to the weight yet, as it's quite a bit heavier then my airpistol. Should I leave the external weights on, or sacrifice stability, and take them off?
Are the other principles pretty much the same as airpistol?
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Steve Swartz
James:
Great to hear you're picking up the Free Pistol! FP shooting is like AP shooting, but more intense. You'll have a lot of fun learning to master the beast- and it will definitely spill over into better AP shooting for you as well. I really look forward to hearing about your "struggle" along the way!
[thanks for the implied compliment OBTW but that picture looks like it was from the 2006 nationals and I can tell you for a fact "that guy" sure didn't seem to know what he was doing that week!]
Also, you might want to start a new thread with this question- some folks have probably "tuned out" on this topic and you need to hear what a lot of other folks have to say.
To discuss your questions:
I think about my FP trigger as if it were also a "two stage trigger." If you concentrate really intensely on your trigger feel (dry fire with eyes closed, seated comfortably, arm supported), you might notice something interesting. You will start from a very light "surface contact" or your finger; then the flesh of your finger will begin compressing without really putting very much pressure on the trigger at all, and then when the flesh is done compressing the inger won't actually move anymore as pressure increases unitl the shot breaks.
So what you effectively have is a kind of "springy take up" or "finger compression phase" followed by the actual trigger pressure.
Weird. Anyhow, that's what I feel on my gun. My trigger weight is a lot lower than 300 grams . . . more around 20 grams. The total weight isn't that important. Anything around 100 grams is probably plenty low enough; I would recommend actually training with a heavier trigger (200-250 grams or so) until you get very comfortable with your fp shot plan and develop a good feel for the new gun.
Here's how I manage the trigger inside my shot plan for Free Pistol. As that country song goes, "Don't Ask Me How I Know" but suffice to say I sent a lot of shots over the backstop before I figured out how to strike a good balance between "aggressive" trigger control and "passive" trigger control!
- Finger outside trigger guard during loft
- Gently allow finger to relax onto surface of trigger as sights aligned and come down into aiming area
- Take up "first stage" (compress flesh) during settle
When I'm "en fuego," the process of compressing the flesh during the settle kind of "flows" into actual trigger pressure at some point and the shot breaks. As If By Magic!
I would say feel free to take the added weights off for now. You will probably want to add some weights back on to increase "muzzle heavy" feel but not that big an issue for now. See if you can dig up our recent thread on this topic about advantages/disadvantages of total weight/weight distribution and that should explain the issues.
Other than that, you are right- it's pretty much like Air Pistol- but better. More challenging. More frustrating. You really have to have your shot plan squared away. Sight alignment + subconscious shot release is **really** important. You have to really be thinking happy thoughts during settle and follow through. More frustrating. But also much more rewarding. When you start hammering 10s on the FP, you know in your heart you are really achieving something!
Good Luck
Steve
Great to hear you're picking up the Free Pistol! FP shooting is like AP shooting, but more intense. You'll have a lot of fun learning to master the beast- and it will definitely spill over into better AP shooting for you as well. I really look forward to hearing about your "struggle" along the way!
[thanks for the implied compliment OBTW but that picture looks like it was from the 2006 nationals and I can tell you for a fact "that guy" sure didn't seem to know what he was doing that week!]
Also, you might want to start a new thread with this question- some folks have probably "tuned out" on this topic and you need to hear what a lot of other folks have to say.
To discuss your questions:
I think about my FP trigger as if it were also a "two stage trigger." If you concentrate really intensely on your trigger feel (dry fire with eyes closed, seated comfortably, arm supported), you might notice something interesting. You will start from a very light "surface contact" or your finger; then the flesh of your finger will begin compressing without really putting very much pressure on the trigger at all, and then when the flesh is done compressing the inger won't actually move anymore as pressure increases unitl the shot breaks.
So what you effectively have is a kind of "springy take up" or "finger compression phase" followed by the actual trigger pressure.
Weird. Anyhow, that's what I feel on my gun. My trigger weight is a lot lower than 300 grams . . . more around 20 grams. The total weight isn't that important. Anything around 100 grams is probably plenty low enough; I would recommend actually training with a heavier trigger (200-250 grams or so) until you get very comfortable with your fp shot plan and develop a good feel for the new gun.
Here's how I manage the trigger inside my shot plan for Free Pistol. As that country song goes, "Don't Ask Me How I Know" but suffice to say I sent a lot of shots over the backstop before I figured out how to strike a good balance between "aggressive" trigger control and "passive" trigger control!
- Finger outside trigger guard during loft
- Gently allow finger to relax onto surface of trigger as sights aligned and come down into aiming area
- Take up "first stage" (compress flesh) during settle
When I'm "en fuego," the process of compressing the flesh during the settle kind of "flows" into actual trigger pressure at some point and the shot breaks. As If By Magic!
I would say feel free to take the added weights off for now. You will probably want to add some weights back on to increase "muzzle heavy" feel but not that big an issue for now. See if you can dig up our recent thread on this topic about advantages/disadvantages of total weight/weight distribution and that should explain the issues.
Other than that, you are right- it's pretty much like Air Pistol- but better. More challenging. More frustrating. You really have to have your shot plan squared away. Sight alignment + subconscious shot release is **really** important. You have to really be thinking happy thoughts during settle and follow through. More frustrating. But also much more rewarding. When you start hammering 10s on the FP, you know in your heart you are really achieving something!
Good Luck
Steve