When you are shooting a Sub six hold, how do you keep the

[John Harvey]

This has been a bit of a revelation. Having adjusted my sights so there is now more light on either side of the notch what has become strikingly obvious to me is how much easier it is to stay focused on the front sight. Since day one, I’ve been shooting with a light “slither” both sides. This was because prior to this I found my eyes darting from left to right trying to consciously calculate whether the light on both sides was equal. (I didn’t know at the time my brain would do that calculation for me!) So I closed the gap – so as to close down the “darting”. What happened then - was the front sight very easily ‘melded’ with the rear sight, my eyes would fluctuate from focus on the front sight, then the rear, (it would also try both at once!) and very (very!) often focus to the target too. All over the place. You can imagine where my shots landed!
Today – I sort of started again – trying to go back and remember to – aim, align and release with intense focus on the front sight. (you can tell I’ve been reading just about every post from Steve Swartz, Ed Hall and David Levine can’t you?!)
What has thrown me off a little is the - calculation - of the ‘sub 6 hold’. I’m finding – maybe because this is now new to me – that I’m consciously trying to calculate how much light is on top of the front sight. The left and right sides seem to be taking care of themselves and the front sight is lining up beautifully within the rear notch. My ‘old’ system had the fuzzy black circle virtually balanced on top of the front sight (Yes, I took those diagrams too literally when I searched how to line the sights up in relation to the circle) Now I’m trying (consciously) to calculate an even amount of light all around – left -top – right. Front sight focus thereby going out the window. Will this “even” balance of light come naturally if I stayed truly focused on the front sight? Is my brain clever enough to “know” that I am now seeking a new place for the fuzzy black circle? (Remember all I’ve EVER done is had it perched on top of the front sight) It’s sort of like I’m not prepared to “trust” the process. But – what should I be trusting…and what should I be consciously working on?
John Harvey

[deleted1]

Due to cataract surgery and lens implant my eyes at 76 are 20/20---but do need reading glasses. My shooting life changed tremendously in the last four years ( no I am not ready to take on the world, far from it). I do use Champions with a lens designed by my shooting opthamologist, and an iris. I do see the front sight and target quite sharp and can even see the rings at 25 & 50 yards. One evening I went to shoot with a friend and forgot my shoting glasses ( NUTS ), so I stayed and toughed it out with my reading glasses. Now the front sight was not sharp nor the target----BUT I payed such close attention to focusing on the front sight that I totally forgot I was shooting---off went the first shot----deep Ten. That target ended with an 86, I was flabbergasted---I paid such close attention to that front sight that I never had an inkling when the gun (20grammes) was going to go off. I thought that evening was a lesson on concentration on the front sight and squeezing that TOZ trigger. To get back to a more germaine issue, I personally found that when I had too little light on either side of the front sight ( too narrow a rear sight ) I began to get what I call the "diffraction-grating effect ", i.e. the narrowness of the light path was diffusing the light coming through the rear sights, which made it nearly impossible to determine visually what I was seeing as far as spacing. If you are not using an iris and a good lens designed for this type of shooting, your troubles are only going to cause more frustration.

[James]

For awhile i have been shooting with my light gaps very wide. My coach shot my pistol one day and we adjusted them to the narrowest setting.

At home, The front sight seems fuzzy. (never able to have sharp focus on it) There isnt as much light as the range though. Should I make my light gaps wider? Or is it my eyes? (I hope not! I'm still only 17 but I wear corrective lenses)

I'll shoot some more and report back.

[David Levene]

What has thrown me off a little is the - calculation - of the ‘sub 6 hold’.

It isn't a science, it's an art. In other words there is no calculation involved, it is more a feeling that you are in the right area.

Notice I used the word "area" and not "place". It is extremely unlikely that you are physically capable of holding the gun still aiming at a specific point. This is nothing against you personally, none of us can. The best you can hope for is to hold the sight alignment rock steady and reduce the area that sight alignment moves about in. If you can't be certain exactly where the gun is going to point then why try to calculate where you should be aiming.

Once you have mastered this technique, try to get a session on an electronic trainer (Scatt, Rika, Noptel etc). Most pistol shooters are amazed at how little they are actually moving. This just proves that it's that darned trigger release that's messing up the scores.

[Steve Swartz]

just a humble suggestion- maybe you should go back in this thread and read all the stuff about how attempting to precisely line things up is absolutely NOT the way to go about it . . .

Steve

[James]

It works!

I realized that I was focusing somewhere inbetween my front sight and the target, so both were kind of in focus, and I was trying to line up the front sight with the target.

I tried only looking at the front sight, and i realized that i dont even remember seeing the bull when I think about the sight picture for the previous shot. So i'm not sure if i'm using a sub six or 6:00 hold, but I put 4 pellets into the same hole right on the 10. That target was a 96 or 97 out of 100. the 3 or 4 that missed the 10 were due to me switching focus to the target when the shot was fired.

But this however leads to another perhaps more difficult problem. I can't seem to keep my eyes focused on the front sight! My focus keeps jumping around. What kind of exercises can I do? The blank target/bull dryfire/live fire drill Steve mentioned earlier?

[Steve Swartz]

1) If you haven't done so already, "undo" what your coach did to your rear sight width. Narrow width (as previously mentioned ad nauseum) will make it much more difficult to focus on front sight.

2) Of course- that is the entire purpose of the blank surface (backwards target paper) drill. Get rid of the bogus distraction of that fuzzy black circle and concentrate on what really matters.

Steve Swartz

[John Harvey]

John:

Good luck with it and let us know how it goes.

Steve Swartz

Reporting back and it’s hard to know where to start. The wider rear notch has made a great difference. Front sight focus and sight alignment is more manageable.
More so, following advice in a post you had made for James - suggesting that "out of 100 training executions, only 10 of these would be live fire against the bull" – has reaped rewards for me. For the past week, I set aside time for three 50 minute sessions, so I could pursue this new training advice with passion.
The blank surface training has kept me focused on keeping the sights aligned. By studying with great focus on what happens the moment the shot releases has enforced a follow through – something I more than often fail to do.
Your post on July 12th regarding the way you have a match rhythm relating to time. - "in air pistol I break it up into 10 shots per 15 minutes"- really got me to examine myself.
Reading this, I realized that I hurry far too much between shots. Poor thinking , poor preparation and poor shot release resulting. I also had to think – that’s 90 seconds per shot – so what do you do with that 90 seconds? I tried it and learned a lot about what I’m “not doing”. First thing I noticed was the extra rest the arm got made a great difference to how it felt when I lifted the gun for the next shot. I also found my thinking process slowed down and I had time to visualize what I wanted prior to the next shot, running through the key elements of front sight focus , keep the sights aligned and trying for a fluid even uninterrupted squeeze
of the trigger.
I also took much more notice of something you mentioned in a post on July 4th – “trying to hold the sights in relation to the target – is an absolute no-no”. Now this in the past has been my biggest set back – and now an area that, once obeyed – has resulted in very satisfactory results and my greatest improvement.
Early days, but I really feel I’ve “turned the corner” –
and given I continue to follow advice such as you have given,
I feel confident that I can improve in leaps and bounds.
One obvious question Steve. If your match plan
(talking just AP here) is a “10 shot per 15 minute” cycle, is that how you train as well?
In other words, whatever my rhythm and cycle is for a match –
should that also be practiced and “cemented” during training?
Thanks for all of your valuable posts.
John

[David Levene]

[ne obvious question Steve. If your match plan
(talking just AP here) is a “10 shot per 15 minute” cycle, is that how you train as well?
In other words, whatever my rhythm and cycle is for a match –
should that also be practiced and “cemented” during training?

Steve will obviously answer for himself but, apart from trying to change/perfect one aspect of your technique during a training session, I can see no reason why you would want to do anything else differently to what you would do in a match. How would you know whether there is any improvement in the element you are working on if you are also changing other things.

[RobStubbs]

1) If you haven't done so already, "undo" what your coach did to your rear sight width. Narrow width (as previously mentioned ad nauseum) will make it much more difficult to focus on front sight.

2) Of course- that is the entire purpose of the blank surface (backwards target paper) drill. Get rid of the bogus distraction of that fuzzy black circle and concentrate on what really matters.

Steve Swartz

Got to agree with Steve here - the whole point of a wide rear sights is to remove the element of being overly critical on the size of the notches - in the same way a sub six hold works. I find when coaching ,90% of shooters have a way too small rearsight notch - open it up and they immediately shoot better. It may appear to be counter intuitive but as David says it's more of an art than a science (and more importantly it works !)

Rob.

[John Harvey]

[/quote] David Levene wrote:
Steve will obviously answer for himself but, apart from trying to change/perfect one aspect of your technique during a training session, I can see no reason why you would want to do anything else differently to what you would do in a match. How would you know whether there is any improvement in the element you are working on if you are also changing other things.[/quote]


Thanks David. Confirming for me what really should be obvious. My confusion lies with the “environment” I’m exposed to here in Bali. I attend training with the Indonesian National team (Bali contingent) – the Olympic hopefuls and the National pistol coach. A lot of what I see is so contradictory. I’m not being disrespectful in relaying my experience with them – juts a little bewildered. When they shoot AP matches here, they make them 75 minutes. “no-one needs the full 105 minutes, we’re all finished way before then” – I’m told. In training, I observe all competitors dry and live firing at a rate of around two times a minute – about twice as fast as their match timing. They train with their cell phones on – I’ve seen more calls taken and text messages sent that shot fired in a 30 minute period!! I’m the only westerner there – and no-one speaks English. Whilst my Indonesian is okay, the language doesn’t cater for clear descriptive words – so anything they hear or read, or pass on, often gets lost a lot in translation. I took up this sport in this country, and have only been to a pistol club twice in Australia as a guest. Even there, I observed rate and rhythm of fire to be at least one shot every 30 – 50 seconds. I understand everyone is an individual and has their “own rhythm”, but only when Steve posted his “shot cycle of 10 shots in 15 minutes” – did I start to “question” my own pace and compare it to what I’ve been exposed to. In a 30 – 45 minute training session that would equate to about 20 – 30 shots. The Indonesian National Coach has one training program, where in 30 minutes, athletes have to complete two targets of 10 shots, and one of 5 shots, 3 shots and two shots. (30 shots) However you are given a “target score” for each one, and if you don’t make the score, you try again until you do make it. Failing to make your 10 shot target score really hurries you up!!!
Maybe (again speaking with respect) that’s why Indonesia’s National AP record stands at 565, and the Nations best is currently scoring (over the past 10 months) in the 552 – 559 range.
I’ve so much to learn – but living and training/competing here, I know I need to be “selective” in where I learn it.
John

[Steve Swartz]

John:

It's been very rewarding chatting with you here. I think the main value of this forum is just what we're doing- sharing "wisdom" (and not infrequently a bunch of BS!) between competitor/colleagues who enjoy a passion for the sport. Don't ever be hesitant to ask for help/throw your own ideas out into the mix! Great to hear that any of us can be of some assistance.

I sincerely wish to see you on the medal stand some day. Standing just a bit lower than myself, of course!

To your specific questions: the best militaries in the world use the philosophy "Train the way you are going to fight- then fight the way you have been trained!" This certainly applies to the fundamentals of your shot plan. Once you have mastered the fundamentals, tehre will be benefit in "expanding your envelope" with drills like: shooting fast, shooting slow, shooting in dim light, shooting in bright light, shooting with distractions, shooting with interruptions, etc. etc. etc.

The key phrase above is "AFTER you have MASTERED the FUNDAMENTALS" of course.

Train for (as has been said previously) "single shot matches." Every shot is a Deep Ten - until you mess it up by sending it downrange. Train at a "match tempo" under "match conditions." You are working to "burn in" or make semi-autonomous (sub conscious) the critical behaviors.

More philosophical musings:

1) Coaching is a funny business. God bless the men and women who spend their valuable time and effort poking along with us as we delve the mysteries of this beautiful obsession. I myself haven't had the benefit of actual coaching until quite recently. I will tell you though that I don't envy the coach's task of trying to figure out just what the heck is going on- let alone how to fix it!

2) There is a lot of mythology and folklore in the shooting sports. Much of it spread by well-meaning but unintentionally harmful "coaches."

3) I have known some absolutely wonderful coaches who can't shoot a lick, and an equal (or greater) number of world-class shotists who don't have the faintest idea (or can't seem to explain) how they do what tehy do so well. There are damn few "Warrio Poets" (or "Scholar Athletes" if you will) in our community. And yeah, there are a fair number of people who can't shoot OR coach. God bless them all. Without PARTICIPATION on the line, in the pubs, or here on Target Talk we would lose our sport.

4) So take what you can get from any coacing/advising opportunities available to you. Sometimes stuff will make sense (work on establishing a comfortable stance/natural point of aim) and sometimes it will sound hideously bizarre (don't aim at the target). It is difficult to sort it all out- see previous remark about folklore and mythology.

Steve Swartz