Guys,
I know some of you are exellent outdoor match shooters, and I need some info.
This weekend we shot the district 50m outdoor championship prone and kneeling on my home club. Wether was great, a hot sun (25 degrees centigrade) moderate wind coming from 10 and 11 oçlock over the 15 feet concrete walls that surround the 16m wide range; wind regularly fishtailing in gusts.
Looking through the spotting scope hardly any mirage was visible. I am well familiar with the effects of wind and mirage. What puzzled me was the following.
I shot in the same relay as someone who is a member of the Dutch Navy centerfire rifle team. He shoots with the "big boys" in the International matches, so he is not an averadge shooter. We both encountered the same unexplanable fliers. Shots that should have been certain ten's, ended in the 8 ring - high, low, left and right. We shot with windflags so it was not only the wind or the small mirage. As far as I know mirage is better visible when weather is warm and there is lots of moisture in the air. That day the air was warm and dry.
Can anyone explane if the fliers were caused by - not visible - thermal currents in combination with the wind?
Albert,
The Netherlands
strange fliers during 50m match
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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Juan Carlos*
Reverberation
The "problem" is the reverberation.
The sun warms the ground and you see the target up because the air near the ground goes up.
The shoots are then high but, if there are some wind (no matter how fast, a little breeze is enough), the warm air moves laterally and you got 8 and 9 left or right dependig on the wind.
The phenomenon with moisty air is worst.
The sun warms the ground and you see the target up because the air near the ground goes up.
The shoots are then high but, if there are some wind (no matter how fast, a little breeze is enough), the warm air moves laterally and you got 8 and 9 left or right dependig on the wind.
The phenomenon with moisty air is worst.
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Albert B
fliers
Thank you Juan Carlos,
I am familiar with the effects with mirage and wind, but the intention of the question was:
Mirage is supposed to change the visual position of the target - but there was no real change in position during the match - while looking through the spotting scope.
Can - not visible - upward moving warm currents of air be responsible for the fliers? (like the thermals that glider pilots use)
Albert
I am familiar with the effects with mirage and wind, but the intention of the question was:
Mirage is supposed to change the visual position of the target - but there was no real change in position during the match - while looking through the spotting scope.
Can - not visible - upward moving warm currents of air be responsible for the fliers? (like the thermals that glider pilots use)
Albert
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Juan Carlos*
Mirage and breeze
Albert:
The position of the image of the target is continuously in movement in as much is mirage and breeze.
If the intensity of the breeze varies, the displacement of the impact will move away.
In addition mirage due to the hot air is not constant along match when varying the temperatures.
Then, the answer to your question is: YES. Not visible (all directions moving warm currents of air) are responsible for the fliers.
You shoot to the "image that you see" and that image moves by effect of the hot air that tends to raise and that moves the wind laterally.
Juan Carlos
The position of the image of the target is continuously in movement in as much is mirage and breeze.
If the intensity of the breeze varies, the displacement of the impact will move away.
In addition mirage due to the hot air is not constant along match when varying the temperatures.
Then, the answer to your question is: YES. Not visible (all directions moving warm currents of air) are responsible for the fliers.
You shoot to the "image that you see" and that image moves by effect of the hot air that tends to raise and that moves the wind laterally.
Juan Carlos
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Juan Carlos*
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Albert B
spotting scope
Juan, I use a spotting scope with a variable magnification of 20 to 60x. Setting the scope to focus at aprox. 40m I saw a mirage that 'stretched' the target to 1 and 7 o'clock over a maximum distance of half a scoring ring. A displacement of 1 ring could have been caused by mirage, but 2 scoring rings was to much. If it was caused by the wind we would have seen a pattern form - we were shooting with the help of windflags at 10 and 30m. The flyers went randomly in all directions so IMO they were caused by not visible hot air currents.
Thanks,
Albert
(The Netherlands)
Thanks,
Albert
(The Netherlands)
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Dennis D.
Flyers
Albert, I shoot 50yd benchrest on a very similar range, 10ft walls on 3 sides, open back. The walls cause a swirling wind pattern with a large portion of verticle displacement the doesn't show very well on the flags. It is only clearly visable eary in the mourning when the fog starts to lift or, if you feel ambitious, try a smoke pot. I use 5 flags and quite often no two will be pointing in the same direction. On bad days the tails will momentarily be blown upward, above the flag.
Dennis
Dennis
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Juan Carlos
Flyers
Albert:
I shooted yesterday at Bordeaux with 30ºC, high humidity and variable but smooth breeze.
The competition began 14,30.
Normally never I do 8 in prone but, yesterday, FOUR eights and ........ ONE 7.
The intensity of the wind could not produce such deviation but combined with the reverberation it produced that disaster.
I shooted yesterday at Bordeaux with 30ºC, high humidity and variable but smooth breeze.
The competition began 14,30.
Normally never I do 8 in prone but, yesterday, FOUR eights and ........ ONE 7.
The intensity of the wind could not produce such deviation but combined with the reverberation it produced that disaster.
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isuguncoach
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:49 pm
- Location: central illinois
- Contact:
Did any other shooters have these same results during the match?
As you journal your scores, have you seen a decline in your average match scores? If your averages are falling, it might be time to start over and make sure the setup of your rifle is correct. Might suggest you have a gunsmith check the headspacing on the rifle, and the torque on the barrel.
As you journal your scores, have you seen a decline in your average match scores? If your averages are falling, it might be time to start over and make sure the setup of your rifle is correct. Might suggest you have a gunsmith check the headspacing on the rifle, and the torque on the barrel.
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Juan Carlos
All the shooters had the same troubles and even more.
I´m 63 years old and got the first place with 573 points. The second one 565.
The two previous scoring were 586 and 582.
My rifle, Anschütz 2013 with Lilja barrel, works very well. One year ago I replace the original barrel and let a headspace of 0.043 ".
Wooden stock and 4,65 Nm torque.
I´m 63 years old and got the first place with 573 points. The second one 565.
The two previous scoring were 586 and 582.
My rifle, Anschütz 2013 with Lilja barrel, works very well. One year ago I replace the original barrel and let a headspace of 0.043 ".
Wooden stock and 4,65 Nm torque.
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Albert B
sorry guys, for my delayed reply but I have ben out of action and of the internet for several weeks due to a physical (painfull) injury - life is full of surprises!
Juan Carlos, you discribe a situation exactly simular to the one I experienced. It is funny to see we use the exact same torque (4.65 Nm) although I still use the old Walther KK-Match (in the usa known as the GX-1), also with a wooden stock. It is capable of 596/600 (with good quality ammo)
Albert
(The Netherlands)
Juan Carlos, you discribe a situation exactly simular to the one I experienced. It is funny to see we use the exact same torque (4.65 Nm) although I still use the old Walther KK-Match (in the usa known as the GX-1), also with a wooden stock. It is capable of 596/600 (with good quality ammo)
Albert
(The Netherlands)
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Juan Carlos
Best score
Albert:
I wish you are perfectly well.
Your KK Match is one of the most acurate fusil I have ever used. Congratulations.
My best score with my 2013 was 595 with the original barrel 50 cm long.
Juan Carlos
(Spain)
I wish you are perfectly well.
Your KK Match is one of the most acurate fusil I have ever used. Congratulations.
My best score with my 2013 was 595 with the original barrel 50 cm long.
Juan Carlos
(Spain)
When the wind is whirled it is convenient to take care of the windflags of 10 meters and to neglect those of 30 meters. When the wind change between 12 o´clock and 2 o´clock, the impact point varies a lot (9 or 8 at 5 o'clock at the 9 at 9 o'clock). That would explain the low and left flyers. The other ones would be a lost of concentration (with all respect).
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Juan Carlos
dgold:
Thanks for the information but would wish to know the foundation of your opinion on the deviations due to the changes of wind direction. I am very interested in it.
What you say on the attention in 10 m and 30 m windflags is valid for wind situations but I believe that not when there is also mirage.
Slight breeze combined with mirage produces worse results than single wind even much more fort.
I had not lost of concentration but I admit that an incomplete relaxation can originate bad shoots but, in my case, never has produced results, without mirage, worse to 9.
Saludos
Thanks for the information but would wish to know the foundation of your opinion on the deviations due to the changes of wind direction. I am very interested in it.
What you say on the attention in 10 m and 30 m windflags is valid for wind situations but I believe that not when there is also mirage.
Slight breeze combined with mirage produces worse results than single wind even much more fort.
I had not lost of concentration but I admit that an incomplete relaxation can originate bad shoots but, in my case, never has produced results, without mirage, worse to 9.
Saludos
Juan Carlos:
In my country we competed at nine in the morning and we don't suffer the consequences of the mirage. For that reason I don't have experience with the mirage. I suffered it in the world cup in Resende Brazil (11:00 h, 35°C a lot of humidity). The USA team used telescope to detect it, and almost nobody more..
The combined effect of the wind (frontal and lateral) it is complicated and I am not an expert as to explain it (but when there is a lot of wind, I am always more competitive).
The wind flags allow to appreciate the lateral wind that produces shots at 4:00 h and 10:00 h clearly (and the flags to 10 m are the most important in this case). The component of the front wind is more difficult to appreciate from the shot position with the wind flags (both flags should be observed).
It can happen with soft wind, not to distinguish a front wind that it comes or that it goes only with the wind flags. We don't have good perspective looking with a single eye.
Un abrazo
In my country we competed at nine in the morning and we don't suffer the consequences of the mirage. For that reason I don't have experience with the mirage. I suffered it in the world cup in Resende Brazil (11:00 h, 35°C a lot of humidity). The USA team used telescope to detect it, and almost nobody more..
The combined effect of the wind (frontal and lateral) it is complicated and I am not an expert as to explain it (but when there is a lot of wind, I am always more competitive).
The wind flags allow to appreciate the lateral wind that produces shots at 4:00 h and 10:00 h clearly (and the flags to 10 m are the most important in this case). The component of the front wind is more difficult to appreciate from the shot position with the wind flags (both flags should be observed).
It can happen with soft wind, not to distinguish a front wind that it comes or that it goes only with the wind flags. We don't have good perspective looking with a single eye.
Un abrazo
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Juan Carlos
ISSF WC Resende
You are lucky shooting in Resende.
Can you tell us something about the competition an your results?
I can´t find you: http://www.wcresende.cbte.org.br/
Telescope is the right way to detect mirage but if you are aiming and you see a blurred target (you can think your eye is tired) there is probably mirage. If you keep on aiming perhaps suddenly you see clear: the wind has dragged the warm and humid air up and mirage has disappeared momentarily. It is time to shoot.
Un abrazo
Juan Carlos.
Madrid. Spain
Can you tell us something about the competition an your results?
I can´t find you: http://www.wcresende.cbte.org.br/
Telescope is the right way to detect mirage but if you are aiming and you see a blurred target (you can think your eye is tired) there is probably mirage. If you keep on aiming perhaps suddenly you see clear: the wind has dragged the warm and humid air up and mirage has disappeared momentarily. It is time to shoot.
Un abrazo
Juan Carlos.
Madrid. Spain
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Albert B
mirage and flyers
Hello gentlemen,
Good te read remarks from all over the world. I live in The Netherlands and my club is in Haarlem, aprox. 7 kilometers (5 miles) from the Noth Sea coast. Most of the time we have incoming wind from the sea. The winds we receive are most of the times above force 2, and cause a fast moving mirage that is only vissible with a spotting scope. The shooting range is boxed in on all 4 sides by concrete walls (we are situated next to houses, a major road and an ice skating ring) Because of this, wind is always swirling into and over the range in all directions at the same time - at each shooting lane the wind flags are pointing in different directions. Only the shooting lanes in the middle have a more constant windfactor. The outer lanes show a lot of vertical winds, because of the wind beeing directed up or down by the walls.
When all of this happenes on a hot summer day and there is relatively less wind together with the litlle mirage we encounter, it can cause 'chaos'.
There is an other problem we have to face: in the evenings, when the club is open, daylight slowly diminishes to darkness and the artificial lighting takes over. The changing angle of light falling on the targets causes the main Point of impact to change constantly. This happends for aprox. a half hour, untill the light conditions are constant again.
At the same time the pupil starts adjusting to the changing light and getting a claer focus is also very difficult.
In a couple of weeks we will start some experiments to see how we can deal with this changing light thing. I will keep you informed on the results.
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Perhaps we should built a shooting range in the middle of the North Sea so we can get a constant wind factor? :)
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Albert
(The Netherlands)
Good te read remarks from all over the world. I live in The Netherlands and my club is in Haarlem, aprox. 7 kilometers (5 miles) from the Noth Sea coast. Most of the time we have incoming wind from the sea. The winds we receive are most of the times above force 2, and cause a fast moving mirage that is only vissible with a spotting scope. The shooting range is boxed in on all 4 sides by concrete walls (we are situated next to houses, a major road and an ice skating ring) Because of this, wind is always swirling into and over the range in all directions at the same time - at each shooting lane the wind flags are pointing in different directions. Only the shooting lanes in the middle have a more constant windfactor. The outer lanes show a lot of vertical winds, because of the wind beeing directed up or down by the walls.
When all of this happenes on a hot summer day and there is relatively less wind together with the litlle mirage we encounter, it can cause 'chaos'.
There is an other problem we have to face: in the evenings, when the club is open, daylight slowly diminishes to darkness and the artificial lighting takes over. The changing angle of light falling on the targets causes the main Point of impact to change constantly. This happends for aprox. a half hour, untill the light conditions are constant again.
At the same time the pupil starts adjusting to the changing light and getting a claer focus is also very difficult.
In a couple of weeks we will start some experiments to see how we can deal with this changing light thing. I will keep you informed on the results.
---
Perhaps we should built a shooting range in the middle of the North Sea so we can get a constant wind factor? :)
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Albert
(The Netherlands)
Juan Carlos: I shot 576 in prone (MQS list). It´s my first World Cup with 45 years old (a dream come true). Thank you for the recommendations with the mirage.
Albert:
If was easy it would not be amusing. Probably the particular conditions of your stand make very difficult to choose the predominant factor (wind, mirage, etc.) in each shoot. In my country (Uruguay) is the wind (its changes of direction, not the intensity) and the light condition.
Albert:
If was easy it would not be amusing. Probably the particular conditions of your stand make very difficult to choose the predominant factor (wind, mirage, etc.) in each shoot. In my country (Uruguay) is the wind (its changes of direction, not the intensity) and the light condition.
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Albert B
shooting range
dgold,
I read that you are a civil engineer. I am a (piping) draftsman/engineer myself - it's a small enegeneering world!
Can you give some info on the type of shooting ranges you shoot? What they look like?
My club had 12 50m shooting lanes. aprox. 9 years ago I competed in the intrnational match in Pilzn - Tsjech Republic with our natinal smallbore team.
It was a great experience: 65 50m shooting lanes, side by side. Best score then was aprox. 595/600. My result was 585.
My best ever prone was 599/600 on our 12m indoor range on a scaled down version of the 50m target and 596/600 on an indoor 50m range during selection match for the Dutch national smallbore team.
Albert
(The Netherlands)
I read that you are a civil engineer. I am a (piping) draftsman/engineer myself - it's a small enegeneering world!
Can you give some info on the type of shooting ranges you shoot? What they look like?
My club had 12 50m shooting lanes. aprox. 9 years ago I competed in the intrnational match in Pilzn - Tsjech Republic with our natinal smallbore team.
It was a great experience: 65 50m shooting lanes, side by side. Best score then was aprox. 595/600. My result was 585.
My best ever prone was 599/600 on our 12m indoor range on a scaled down version of the 50m target and 596/600 on an indoor 50m range during selection match for the Dutch national smallbore team.
Albert
(The Netherlands)