Free Pistol Muzzle Flip

shadow · Post by **shadow** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:18 pm

What ammo will yield the minimum of muzzle "flip" in a Hammerli 162. I noticed that the FP10 shoots a lot different than my 162.

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:51 am

To answer your question directly, generally the slowest velocity ammo witht he slowest burning powder and lightest bullet will give you the least amount of recoil. Lower recoil is translated into lower muzzle flip among other things.

Just out of curiosity, why is "muzzle flip" an issue for you?

Steve Swartz

Mark Briggs · Post by **Mark Briggs** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:44 am

Not to argue with the esteemed Mr. Swartz's comments, I would rather like to embellish his point somewhat. Soft-recoiling ammunition will reduce recoil, and hence muzzle flip. On the other hand, it is likely far more important to consider grip fit and the balance of the pistol as contributors to muzzle flip. Or more importantly, to the ability to control muzzle flip as it relates to producing a group and being able to "call" your shots.

I know some of what I write on this forum is construed as being, well, maybe a little nuts. OK, maybe a LOT nuts... ;-) But I know with my Morini CM84E that I'm doing the right thing when the muzzle actually goes DOWN when I fire. For some reason, I seem to group best with this pistol when I use hot ammo. My favourite is some very old Eley Tenex. It's hot, but beautifully consistant. And when I shoot it well, the front sight dives after the shot breaks. If I see the muzzle rise, it will normally also deviate to one side, indicating an ugly flier that's gone out into the 7-ring.

By comparison, my TOZ and its predecessor, a Hammerli 150, both tended to have the muzzle rise on firing. If it came straight up, the bullet went into the 10-ring. If not, well, let's not think too much about that... With both the TOZ and Hammerli I shot well with moderate-speed ammo (Eley yellow box), and haven't yet had much luck shooting FP with mild ammo. That's my personal experience, and your experience is guaranteed to be different! ;-)

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:46 pm

Most high-quality match grade ammunition will recoil ("flip") about the same. (same weight bullet, same mv, same powder burn rate)

If you desire less "flip" you will probably end up shooting something other than high quality match grade ammo.

Just wondering why you would want to do this?

Steve

(If you want less recoil shoot .22 shorts in your FP. Accuracy, however, will suffer greatly among other problems.)

PETE S · Post by **PETE S** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:46 am

Why is muzzle flip a concern? If you are using good ammo, isn't the effect from the ammo a constant? The same every time you squeeze off the shot? Hence, if you have the sights properly and percisely aligned, and maintain constant grip pressure, does not the recoil have to be the same.

Now if YOU, the shooter or grip nut as I prefer to call myself, approaches the target different and allow grip pressures to change or make other physical diferences to your technique, the recoil will be different.

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:38 am

PETE S wrote:Why is muzzle flip a concern? If you are using good ammo, isn't the effect from the ammo a constant? The same every time you squeeze off the shot? Hence, if you have the sights properly and percisely aligned, and maintain constant grip pressure, does not the recoil have to be the same.

Now if YOU, the shooter or grip nut as I prefer to call myself, approaches the target different and allow grip pressures to change or make other physical diferences to your technique, the recoil will be different.

Good point, Pete. Does this not imply that reducing recoil will reduce the effect of shot to shot variation in grip pressure, trigger release, etc? If true, then recoil reduction systems like mass on a spring may help those of us with a less than perfect technique. Maybe Steyr could put their LP10 recoil reduction system into a new FP.

Fred

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:47 am

Steve Swartz wrote:Most high-quality match grade ammunition will recoil ("flip") about the same. (same weight bullet, same mv, same powder burn rate)

Not true. You can shoot high quality, match grade rifle ammo; or you can shoot high quality, match grade pistol ammo. Aside from the issue of what particular type of ammo your pistol shoots most accurately, the recoil 'flip' of a higher velocity, slower burning rifle ammo will be different than pistol ammo.

Fred

PETE S · Post by **PETE S** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:09 am

Fred:
Certainly the better ergonomics of different firearms, some of the recoil compensations systems, better triggers, etc. can help improve performance. But as we all have some limits on how much mental energy and time we can spend shooting where does get the most improvement?

Now some of us are not really as concerned about improvement in shooting as we are with having fun shooting and working with the different firearms. Please enjoy teh experimentation with the firearms and ammo and other equipment.

The top shooters with good technique will still win given a rusty old High Standard versus someone with poor technique and a highly advanced firearm.

My suggestion is to get equipment up to the standard of the sport, use ammo up to the standard of the sport (this does not mean practising with Eley Tenex) rather than Walmart jumbo pack ammo. Then put your effort into your technique to improve.