Trigger question

[CraigE]

I am adjusting the trigger on a Pardini K2s. I clearly understand which elements to adjust for anticipated results. My question: Is there a specific point on the trigger blade at which to place the weight to determine that release happens at >500g?

What I seem to find is that placing the weight at the middle of the trigger blade (in the cross-wise groove) indicates a trigger pull meeting the rules. If I place the weight at or near the low end of the trigger blade, the weight will not lift from the bench.

Would appreciate any input on this. Barring some clear definition of the measurement location, I will adjust based on the most sensitive location. My suspicion is that mechanical advantage plays into the equation.

Thanks for any help. CraigE

[funtoz]

Rule 8.4.2.6.1 requires the trigger pull be measured form the center of the trigger shoe. This is usually where manufacturers put the groove.

If you are adjusting in preparation for the upcoming USNC, be aware that random trigger tests are conducted after the qualification round. Trying to get within a gnats tail of the limit at equipment check is probably not the best idea. Failing the random check is a disqualification.

Larry

[CraigE]

Thanks for the clarification Larry. My goal is to have the trigger in compliance and set to 510g....using the middle of the trigger shoe. I can adjust higher should the consensus be that 10g is too close a tolerance. And yes, I am looking to be at USA NC. Thanks for the help. CraigE

[funtoz]

Also keep in mind that air guns are checked with propellant discharge. I doubt that it makes a difference with the current state of air gun design, but it would be a good idea to make sure before you go.

It sounds like your first trip. Get to equipment check early and don't forget your numbers, even for training. Good luck and have fun.

Larry

[David Levene]

My goal is to have the trigger in compliance and set to 510g

In my opinion 510g is too close for comfort. My pistol is set to 540g so I KNOW that it will lift the weight with ease.

Remember that although failing in the 3 permitted attempts at pre-competition EC will still allow you to go away and adjust the trigger. failing the 3 attempts at the post-match random check will (not may) result in disqualification.

I cannot see why people get so hung up about getting as close as possible to the 500g. If you can feel the difference between 500g and 550g then you are probably good enough to learn to use the latter.

[aurorapolice02_11]

with Dave. The 500g is just a rule. Like anything in shooting, if you get use to it, then you will become proficient. If they were to change the weight rule to 1000g I am sure scores would go down for a bit...

But, just like Rapid Fire is going through change, the scores are going up again because the shooters are learning to adapt.

I would guess my trigger weight was also around the 540+ grams as well.

Erich Buljung actually had me heavy my triggers to pay more attention to trigger control and I never really backed them down again. A "heavy" trigger may actually help you pay attention to your trigger control.

Mike Douglass

[Spencer]

Rule 8.4.2.6.1 requires the trigger pull be measured form the center of the trigger shoe. This is usually where manufacturers put the groove.

If you are adjusting in preparation for the upcoming USNC, be aware that random trigger tests are conducted after the qualification round. Trying to get within a gnats tail of the limit at equipment check is probably not the best idea. Failing the random check is a disqualification.

Larry

Further to Larry's wise words :
- just back from the World Cup at Munich and every pistol checked in the random checks lifted the trigger weight (comfortably) on the FIRST attempt! I.e. the world's best shooters are not chasing 'ultra close' trigger weights.
- "This is usually where manufacturers put the groove." Wish that this were so!
We (Equipment Control Jury) have been known to not accept the manufacturer's position of the groove, and send shooters away to get a groove cut in an appropriate part of the trigger.
The intent in 8.4.2.6.1 is that the shooter has to pull at least 500g. The weight should be suspended where the shooter places the finger on the trigger - the artificial 1/2 dimensions in previous versions of the rules has gone, courtesy of some manufacturers who seemed to built triggers with unusual lengths to take advantage of the (old) wording.

Regards,
Spencer

[BJ]

Interesting comments Spencer,

1/ What brand and model of pistol have the Jury not accepted re. the manufacturers trigger test position?

2/ Also, after just checking the ISSF rules 8.4.2.6.1, how could you technically fail any trigger that was checked at the half way point of the blade? There is no reference at all to placement of the finger on the blade.

[David Levene]

2/ Also, after just checking the ISSF rules 8.4.2.6.1, how could you technically fail any trigger that was checked at the half way point of the blade? There is no reference at all to placement of the finger on the blade.

The small drawings in 8.4.2.6.4 are, in my opinion, a clear indication that the intent of the rule is that the weight should be suspended from the area that is normally in contact with the finger.

This is backed up by the following which is taken from the ISSF Training Manual for Range Officials & Judges:-

"The illustrations of the trigger weight position on the trigger shown in
(8.4.2.6.4) are included to show that the trigger weight is to be
suspended in the position where the shooter would place the trigger
finger in normal use of the pistol; the artificial ‘half way’ along the trigger
specified in previous versions of the ISSF rules has been dropped and
does not apply."

[CraigE]

As always in this forum, the assistance is competent, copious and sincere. I will add to the pull to assure more cushion. Thanks to all for the input.

CraigE

[Spencer]

Interesting comments Spencer,

1/ What brand and model of pistol have the Jury not accepted re. the manufacturers trigger test position?

2/ Also, after just checking the ISSF rules 8.4.2.6.1, how could you technically fail any trigger that was checked at the half way point of the blade? There is no reference at all to placement of the finger on the blade.

A1 Many, although it is not specific to brand/model - all you have to do is look at the triggers going through EC and compare (even within one brand/model) to find there is no consistency.

A2 covered by David's reply

Spencer

[funtoz]

Spencer ... and David

We have crossed over into the arena that is probably of more interest to those of us that end up enforcing the rules at matches. The request for make and model references of rejected pistols is important to us in understanding what you all do at the ISSF level. We don't get the benefit of working with international level judges that often, and many of us at the lowest levels are mostly book trained. I have not noticed that the manufactures of the more popular pistols are deliberately offsetting the test groove, but I just may not have been sensitized to the potential. Please point us to some examples that could clarify what we are looking for... Or should we be looking for non-standard trigger configurations that might have been modified by the shooter to gain a pull weight advantage.

David's reply isn't very satisfying. If the ISSF intended to say that the pull was to be measured at the center of where the shooter normally places their finger, then that is what the rules should be saying. They currently say that it is to be measured near the center of the trigger. It doesn't say that you should measure at the bitter end of the trigger if the shooter places their finger there. Some on this list think that I am evil and a detriment to the sport to expect shooters to follow technical and safety rules, but the rules are what makes what we do a sport and not a bunch of yahoos blasting away in the woods. You two probably see far more ISSF bigshots than most of us, so how about passing on the idea of fixing 8.6.4.2.4 to say what they intend.

I don't suppose the book that David references is readily available?

Larry

[David Levene]

I don't suppose the book that David references is readily available?

Sure is, from the ISSF Shop

There are a few things in the rule book that require clarification. With a clear statement of intent from the ISSF I doubt that any appeal, at world level anyway, would have any hope of being successful.

[funtoz]

Thank you David. I have meant to download that particular manual in the past but have never gotten to it. Life unfortunately intrudes too often into what I'd really rather be doing.

Indeed there are needed clarifications to the rules. I expect that it will always be that way. It is hard enough to write procedures in English for English speaking users without ambiguities. The ISSF has the whole world interpreting theirs.

Larry

[Spencer]

David's link is to the free download - don't be put off by the use of the word 'shop'.

I am reluctant to point to any particular manufacturer - as mentioned above, for several manufacturers there seems to be no rhyme or reason, or consistency as to the placement of the trigger groove to support a trigger weight.

The groove itself has a colourful history. A while back trigger designs that would not support a weight came on the market - at EC the 'solution' was to say "if it cannot be checked, it cannot be passed".
Triggers that had problems (due to shape) sported a groove to give the weight somewhere to hang; often in places nowhere near where the shooter would place the finger. Then came rule wording that included the 1/2 dimension - far be it for me to suggest that any trigger design exploited this, but there might have been triggers that (effectively) hinged from the bottom of the trigger and grew in length.

Now...
about the 220mm sight radius for 25m pistols...
This has been a rule for a VERY long time, but it is surprising how many ISSF-specific 'standard' pistols need modification to meet this rule.

If interested I have posted some explanations to the pistol rules at http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/nrc_pa/exp2.htm and the GTRs affecting pistol at http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/nrc_pa/exp1.htm

Regards,
Spencer

[BJ]

Spencer and David,

Just to clarify things.
If a shooter whose trigger had passed initial trigger check was seen to be placing their finger on the bottom of
the blade (below manufacturers mid point mark where it was checked), would they be disqualified?

[aurorapolice02_11]

no

[Guest]

What is right?
Midle of trigger or where finger goes?
What if finger is highr than groove, can it be lightr at groove?

[Spencer]

Loud, audible sigh!

Spencer

[BJ]

Thanks for that clarification, it really makes things easy for us to understand.
How can we try to comply with a rule that is open to 2 different interperatations.