carbon fiber tanks

[dam8]

I've red that cf tanks hold 3 times the amount of air as a standard scuba tank. the fittings on the top of the cf tank aren't y valve? are they? so do you or don't you need a din fitting?

[RobStubbs]

I think the tanks you are refering to are 300 bar rather than 200, or 232. They will contain 3/2.32 times more gas volume for volume - which equates to more useable gas depending on how low you let your cylinder go before refilling. I let mine get to about 140 bar before getting it filled up so that gives me just less than 2 times as much useable air as a 232. That said a 10L 232 tank lasts me about 9 months so I'll stick with that.

Rob.

[Guest]

I let mine get to about 140 bar before getting it filled up so that gives me just less than 2 times as much useable air as a 232. That said a 10L 232 tank lasts me about 9 months so I'll stick with that.

Rob.

Normally an AP filling adapter cannot be used with the 300 bar tanks. Which meens you have to have a converter or regulator fitted in between the tank and your adapter. Both are expensive, and "consumes" come of you air.
Walther Match 300 and the Tesro AP are among the few APs that have filling adapters for 200 and 300 bar tanks (different thread-lenghts, foolproof).
If you have got a common 200 bar AP with solely a 200 bar filling adapter, you would have to stick to that one. Then the 300 bar tanks are not for you.
I have got a simple 300/200 bar converter custom made. But that is illegal and not foolproof. Used to fill cylinders which feature build-in pressure gauges, I feel safe, though.

[jrmcdaniel]

regulator? You only "need" a regulator for filling from a 300 bar tank if you have novices filling from it. The valve can be easily used to control a fill even for supposedly "fast" valves.

Joe

[RobStubbs]

regulator? You only "need" a regulator for filling from a 300 bar tank if you have novices filling from it. The valve can be easily used to control a fill even for supposedly "fast" valves.

Joe

Only if the gun cylinders have their own (and working) gauges. If they don't a regulator is essential.

Rob.

[jrmcdaniel]

Right -- all FT shooters us a filler with its own gauge. The built-in gauges are so small and difficult to read accurately that I would be wary of using one for filling, anyway.

Best,

Joe

[Fabian]

Airhog.com is a great place to buy a Carbon Fiber 4500 psi tank. He will sell you the correct fitting, valve and regulator.

[KeithS]

As a professional FireFighter (and shooter) I have been researching the filling of air pistol cylinders, both for competitions and practices. There are regulations that cover these things....and in the majority of cases these regulations are not being followed.
I personally have seen instances of juniors filling their cylinders, unsupervised. NOT A GOOD IDEA! Juniors should not be allowed to fill cylinders...either air or co2 from high pressure tanks. Adults only.
I have also personally witnessed an air cylinder that was not screwed on tight enough, and the scuba tank opened. The adult got scared. The cylinder rolled across the floor until I grabbed it.
In Summary....
There needs to be better regulations put in place before someone gets hurt. We as a shooting community better get a handle on this, or, the powers that be will set the rules.
Filling adapters are required to be "approved" for all high pressure cylinders. I have found very few that have the required stamps on them. What happens if they fail, and someone gets hurt? Who pays the bills??
I know the ISSF is starting to look at this. The problem is that every country has different rules and regulations.

Here is my recommendations on the matter]

1) Juniors are not allowed to fill cylinders of any description.

2) A designated area for filling be set up AWAY from the main competitors and match.

3) Certified filling adapters be used.

4) Filling tanks be properly secured to prevent them from falling over, etc

5) At big matches, designated people fill the cylinders. People DO NOT understand that you do not "rapid fill" an air cylinder....we don't in the fire service, as we have learned what can happen!

Further comments on this are appreciated.

[dam8]

on pilks site there is a great write up on scuba. EVERYONE should read. When I fill, I hold the cyl. with my left hand and operate the reg. with my right, open slowly and move my left hand front to back on the cyl. and feel.Making sure it warms up slowly.Don't want to heat up the cyl.!

[Pradeep5]

With the amount of volume an AP cyclinder can hold, I haven't found them to get very warm when filled up quickly. Even when you try and open the SCUBA valve as slow as possible, the cyclinder still fills within 15 seconds or so, IME. However, I do exercise common sense by standing clear of the cylinder gauge on the end (Morini).

Perhaps AR cylinders tend to heat up more?

When I went to initially fill my 300 Bar SCUBA tank at the fire station, that was certainly another matter. We put it in the water bath, and took plenty of time getting it filled.

[Oldtimer]

regulator? You only "need" a regulator for filling from a 300 bar tank if you have novices filling from it. The valve can be easily used to control a fill even for supposedly "fast" valves.

Joe

Obviously, there is some fundamental confusion here.
The filling adapter that came with my Steyr LP50 cannot be used for filling from 300 bar tanks (europeean, DIN valve/threads.)
Thank God, "jrmcdaniel", these things are made foolproof!

The adapter can be screwed into the valve of the 300 bar tank, but due to its shorter treaded lenght, the adapter will bottom its shoulder, well before the O-ring of the adapter can be compressed against the bottom seat of the tanks valve. If the tanks valve is then opened, the ear will leak by the adapter, and cylinders cannot be filled this way.
If you are still in doubt, try this yourself.

[jrmcdaniel]

I said "regulator" not "adapter." You do need the proper plumbing but you do not need to regulate the pressure to the adapter. Adapters cost about $100, regulators are far more ($360 to $400 at http://www.airhog.com/regulators.htm and Airhog is one of the very best places to get any PCP air needs). That's about 300 fills for me.

Joe

[Guest]

Mr. "jrmcdaniel", it is pretty obvious that you have never been able to fill an 200 bar DIN cylinder from a 300 bar tank.
It simply cannot be performed without a "converter". The reason is the threaded shank of the 200 bar filling adapter is too short to fit tight in the valve of any 300 bar DIN tank!

This is a topic of importance, unsafe treatment of highly pressurized items is potentionally hazardious, and should not be covered in unintelligent terms in this coloumn.
Thanks.

[Spencer]

Thank God, "jrmcdaniel", these things are made foolproof!

unfortunately NOT!!!!
lots of 'clever' people have managed to manufacture an adapter plug (about 30 seconds on a lathe, or maybe a few minutes with a block of plastic or metal and a file and drill).

There is no limit to the human ability to find fixes to the best efforts of those that try to protect them.

Spencer C

[Richard H]

Mr. "jrmcdaniel", it is pretty obvious that you have never been able to fill an 200 bar DIN cylinder from a 300 bar tank.
It simply cannot be performed without a "converter". The reason is the threaded shank of the 200 bar filling adapter is too short to fit tight in the valve of any 300 bar DIN tank!

This is a topic of importance, unsafe treatment of highly pressurized items is potentionally hazardious, and should not be covered in unintelligent terms in this coloumn.
Thanks.

Give the guy a break, I don't condon what he telling people but try actually reading what he says. I can't find in any post where he says that you don't need a 300 bar fitting, he only says you don't need a regulator, which is true (I don't agree with the procedure but you can fill a 200 bar cylinder with a 300 bar tank if you have the 300 bar adapter). Actually he does say you need the "proper plumbing" which would mean the fitting.

I suggest if you are going to use a 300 bar tank spend $300 bucks on a regulator and buy a proper 300 bar fitting don't get bubba in the garage to make you one.

[jrmcdaniel]

For "Guest" and/or "Oldtimer" -- actually, I do fill 200bar tanks from 300bar tanks almost daily. I have a 300bar DIN SCBA tank with adapters that I bought from Airhog and Airguns of Airizona for filling my Steyr LG100ZM with a quick-fill adapter and SAM M10 using the tank adapter with a mating quick-disconnect. This type of setup is very common in field target shooting.

If "guest" wants to "talk," he can email me rather than impugning me. I'll be glad to share notes on how he can achieve a similar safe setup.

Best,

Joe

[Guest]

Thanks, but I have had a custom made "thread converter" for my 300 bar DIN tank for over 5 years. From which I regurlarly fill my 200 and 300 bar cylinders. Here in Europe setups like this is fairly common.

[Richard H]

Thanks, but I have had a custom made "thread converter" for my 300 bar DIN tank for over 5 years. From which I regurlarly fill my 200 and 300 bar cylinders. Here in Europe setups like this is fairly common.

I beleive in Europe 300 bar is more the standard for SCUBA equipment in North America it's 200 bar.

[KeithS]

For the masses, both the informed and uninformed....

Here are the PSI conversion values so you know what everyone is talking about....

200 bar = 2900 PSI

300 bar = 4351 PSI

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Manufacturers are required to have different attachment valve bodies on the cylinders so the lower pressure tanks cannot be mistakenly overfilled (reference to a 200 bar tank, of course)...Or a higher pressure tank used on a system that is supposed to be used only with a 200 bar tank (like most of our air cylinders, maybe???).

I would not use a 300 bar tank to fill a 200 bar cylinder without a regulator in place. One distraction is one too many for me. These small cylinders we use for our pistols/rifles have no over pressure safety disks or other such safety devices in place....

If the person asking the "first" question in this thread is looking for a filling cylinder that can be used for a fair length of time, I would suggest you ask for a "1 hour tank". They are slightly larger than the normal ones, and will last a considerably longer time before needing refilling.

In fact, the price cost is not that much more than the regular ones, which are generally classed as "1/2 hour" bottles. SCUBA tanks are rated a bit different, but the same idea follows.

Fire Fighting bottles have a different connecting system in place than SCUBA bottles. From my perspective, the connecting system is much safer for use by the general public who are not familiar AND experienced with high pressure devices. Fire Fighting bottles are available in both 2216 PSI and 4500 PSI.

Common sense dictates everything we do....Seeing as we use good solid safety rules on the firing line at our shooting ranges, why are we not doing the same thing here????

As I said before.....Let's set some rules before someone does it for us based on an unfortunate incident....

[Richard H]

Keith if you think what you heard so far is bad. The field target guys sometimes actually have the cylinders modified so that they can be filled from the front (where the guage is) while they are still mounted on the rifle.

I agree personally I would use a regulator if I was filling a 200 bar cylinder from a 300 bar tank. (remember some Walthers are 300 bar though). A single moment of inattention could result in a life time of greif for your self or someone who cares about you. The other problem is that it might not explode on you but you could have significantly weakened the cylinder and you sell it to some one else who then has it explode on him prematurely because you over stressed it and reduced its fatigue life.

Seeing as a regulator is a few hundred dollars (which is years of refills for an individual) I'd vote to just take to the shop and get it refilled more often.

If for a club solution where filling the tanks is a bit of a pain, I would look into the small compressors.