Grouping closer?

[snapy050]

Hi Guys,

I recently bought a new fwb 700 alu. I have set the weapon to an accuracy of 10.8 using bench rest. I have also set its cheek piece as someone mentioned without the backsights. Now I have put on the backsights and also customised all the other parts to my body. I instantly started shooting about 96 % . Now the thing is the group being formed is pretty huge. Usually the whole of 9 ring and 8 ring is blown off. about 4-5 shots always landup in 9's. Before there used to be horizontal group.. so I leaned a little more and that was rectified. Now the group is circular, I mean a clear circular hole. I am not able to understand what to do to better my shooting.. The goal is obviously 100% so Is it advicable to lessen the trigger weights in the second pull.. As its still in the default state when it came from germany so that the group might become better? OR do you guys have something else to say?

Any advice is helpful! Thanks in Advance Guys!

cheers!

Rajesh
Indian National Shooter.

[wrc]

What scores were you shooting BEFORE buying the new rifle? A first guess is that you can not expect any better than what your body and mind can CURRENTLY produce. That means that you will need to continue your mental and physical training to achieve the accuracy that your rifle can already achieve. So it is probably not in the adjustments of the rifle, but rather in yourself that progress will be made.

That said, carefully making small adjustments, documenting the changes, and studying what you have done can be an excellent excercise for understanding. Make sure to change only one thing at a time, and shoot with it for many sessions before deciding if it does or does not work better.

[snapy050]

That really is a very nice advice. That gives me a sense of direction to work on to achieve success. By the way I was shooting around 375/400 prior to buying a new rifle. I do Understand that the efficency of my rifle to shoot 10's is 100% and mine is a little less than that. But I also believe that its the right combination between man and machine that can do the 600 magic. That is the reason I asked if there could exist something out of my knowledge to do that magic!

The sadest part is that on this topic, as of now, there are about 78 views but only 1 reply. People just like to have a peep into other's issues. They never want to feel responsibe as a member of targettalk to put their view.

Come on shooters, you got to help make this an exciting place where one feels a sense of nofear even if we dont have a personal coach to train us. Please spend 1 min to reply to any post that you read. Understandable if you have little knowledge of the discussion but, please dont be ignorant to post your reply as This place is to help promote shooting as a sport around the world. Especially in India to knock out cricket and replace shooting in its place!

Cheers!
Rajesh.

[Richard H]

So Raj you were shooting 93.75% before you got the new rifle and now you are shooting 96%, not a bad improvement just by buying a different rifle. The higher your score gets the changes make only smaller differences (law of diminishing returns). I suggest you might want to work on your position, physical or mental training and not totally focus on tweaking the rifle. The rifle is only a tool and there are other parts of the shooting system to look at. If your hold is truly a 9 ring hold that is a limitation, and to change that you have to determine what is contributing to the size of your hold, physical, mental or Technical. What other types of training do you do to effect the other areas? How much time do you actually spend training, physical, mental and actualy shooting (this includes only the time you spend doing the activities)?

You should also work on your patience you only had to wait a day to get some responses.

[tilly]

If we all knew the magic incantation or faery powder to sprinkle, we'd all be shooting 600. There is no special secret other than work and hard thought about why or why not. You must feel it from within. That is what makes shooting special, and not everyone from the street can do it.Use your mind and slow down. You are asking for "Olympic" advice, and there are few Olympians here.

[snapy050]

Thanks richard and Tilly! My hold now is a little better than the 9 ring. Actually I used to shoot with fwb 600 at our club which was about 6-8 years old! So obviously a new rifle is better! No wonder I had that boost from 93% to 96. But the challenge is to get to 100% now. In today's Training Session, My main aim was to customise the trigger weights to my self rather than keeping the way feinwerkbau sent it to me. So with that I reduced the 1st stage about 30% and the second stage to about 70%. Guess what happened? I shot about 30 shots after that and the scores were 98 average! I always knew that the trigger was something where I could improve on because usually my group would be horizontal from 9' o clock 8 to 3 'o clock 8. So I guess I have solved the problem. My group is also very small now. I just need to be consistant now.

I train around 3 hrs a day shooting + 1 hour on technical and mental + 1 hr analysing. I still dont have a routine schedule for physical (I feel very lazy ;-)

The New challenge is that when I shoot those 9's I feel I had shoot well but how did it fall into 9? So there I loose my confidence.. Do you guys have an answer for that?

Also now from 98 to 100 is going to be a very tough journey.. As you all rightly pointed out, I must work on my physical, mental, technical areas now.. Can you suggest me some the vital tips in these areas so that I can plan and work out for the next 6 months?

[mishradk]

Hi rajesh,
first of all for your new Rifle and for getting 98%..
it is good..
Your problem that many views and no answer.. good .. it is always good.. people who really know the sport should answer. you dont know the person who is answering ..

Once we were talking about the +ve thinking and we should always think about how our shots are going to 10 and continue that...
Now you are asking why the shot went to 9...
yes now you have to think the other way round...

there are chances ..( because it is calculation and based on forces ) think that you always chk 10 actions and at last say that all my 10 actions (chk points) were proper and thats why i got 10 and i am getting 10.
But after chking all the 10 chk points if your score is 9 then it is possible that there is some more chk points some, more forces acting some where which went wrong.. and you dont think about that .. or your chking of the 10 chk points were wrong...

here your mental trg works
it makes you so stable mentally that your analysis for those 10 point are so accurate like computer that you never miss out any one and you can add more parameter ( new chk points) for your improvement...

You know i am a starter... and after reading what i understood that i posted.. IF ANY ONE THINKS I AM WRONG PLEASE CORRECT ME..
it will improve my shooting too...else i will be following this idea..

I am also ordering my rifle. I have mailed to Mr Viswajeet to import the rifle...

i am returning to India on 23rd March. Not sure whether i can get my stuffs here in USA... Else i will have to order from India..
Ok
See you soon and convey my regards to every one at range..

its me
dk

[Richard H]

Thanks richard and Tilly! My hold now is a little better than the 9 ring. Actually I used to shoot with fwb 600 at our club which was about 6-8 years old! So obviously a new rifle is better! No wonder I had that boost from 93% to 96. But the challenge is to get to 100% now. In today's Training Session, My main aim was to customise the trigger weights to my self rather than keeping the way feinwerkbau sent it to me. So with that I reduced the 1st stage about 30% and the second stage to about 70%. Guess what happened? I shot about 30 shots after that and the scores were 98 average! I always knew that the trigger was something where I could improve on because usually my group would be horizontal from 9' o clock 8 to 3 'o clock 8. So I guess I have solved the problem. My group is also very small now. I just need to be consistant now.

I train around 3 hrs a day shooting + 1 hour on technical and mental + 1 hr analysing. I still dont have a routine schedule for physical (I feel very lazy ;-)

The New challenge is that when I shoot those 9's I feel I had shoot well but how did it fall into 9? So there I loose my confidence.. Do you guys have an answer for that?

Also now from 98 to 100 is going to be a very tough journey.. As you all rightly pointed out, I must work on my physical, mental, technical areas now.. Can you suggest me some the vital tips in these areas so that I can plan and work out for the next 6 months?

There is a lot more to mental training than analyzing your targets. Above you have demonstrated a mental weakness. You described figuring out how you shot a 9. Go ahead and work on that if you want to shoot more 9's. What you should be looking at is how you shot those tens and repeat that. Working on your confidence is probably one of the major things for a shooter to work on? You must look at what motivates you. Are you task oriented or ego -oriented? Here are some questions to help you decide. If you shoot well does it matter if you didn't win? Are you excited when you learn and master a new skill? Do you enjoy beating other competitors? There are a number of quizes to determine your motivation and there is no wrong or right. Most top athletes are both task and ego orientented, but to formulate proper mental strategies you have to know your make-up so that you can deal with mental issues (both motivations have pit falls so you have to know how to deal with the ones that may come up for you). It sounds like you have all the basic skills so really the only thing stopping you is your mind. Once one learns the skills and can subconciously control the shot the only thing left is the mind. I suggest you look into some sports phsycology books and another great resource for the mental game is Lanny Bassham he has a web site and offers tapes,books, dvd and one on one seminars (specializing in shooting) (72 silver medalist and 76 gold medalist). Lanny basically talks about three mental areas that a shooter has, his concious circle, his sub-conscious circle and his self image circle. These three circles need to be equal in size or there are problems. When the circles are balanced the only person that can bet you is someone who also has balanced circles that are bigger than yours. So you have to work on balancing you three areas and expanding their size. If you have access to a sports phsycologist go for it, if not you will have to do like most shooters and become an pseudo expert yourself.

Here's Lanny's website http://www.lannybassham.com

If you want to discuss any of these topics feel free to PM me or contact me via YM or MSN. Being a shooter (pistol with some rifle) I enjoy discussing these subjects with other shooters as it helps to reinforce the principles and makes me take a critical look at my training as well.

[cdf]

As a bystander , a 3% improvement right out of the box sounds pretty good . I think you are expecting too much from yourself . It will take time for you to adjust yourself and your technique to a new gun . ( even the latest , greatest , and best overall !)

A rifle like the 700 has a mind boggling range of adjustments , combinations , and permutations . What I would think you should expect is a gradual , incremental improvement .

Good luck , and enjoy!

Chris

[snapy050]

Outstanding thread really! I value and thank all the info thats been coming up in this thread. It is like mentoring me! Richard, you got me! I totally agree with what you say about my mental approach. For the matter of fact, I was thinking after i completed my analysis of last month. My physical shooting has always been top class. Only the way i feel in my mind on that day decides the fate of my scores. Well my training is going on well and since its a learning time, I am still not looking for consistancy.. I am looking to always improve.. Thats helping to increase my performance graph.

My motivation factor is huge.. Its like to learn swimming by yourself, you got to burn the boat! thats where i am exactly in life. My last chance to fight back has boiled down to shooting. I really need inputs from people like you and a few others to really better my shooting.

I am working on a lot of mental approach material thats available for free on web. By the way am a student and still cant afford to spend much on material. I have also progressed by a huge way in 3 position 50m also. my prone and standing skills have been more refined than ever before.

About kneeling, I had developed into adptoing a bad and wrong position untill last year.. I need to re invent my kneeling position so are there any guys out there to help me build my kneeling position right from a scratch?

A detailed explanation would be helpful.

By the way I shoot 3position, prone 60, air rifle all in sr. men olympic events.

Rajesh Manpat,
Indian National Shooter.

[rum4m]

Guys, what do you think - is is worthwhile to train each day or not? Personally, I feel that each day training ( about 2 to 3 hours) doesn't make any big sense because you look always a bit weary and see shooting like a routine and not a pleasure. What do you think?

[Guest]

Understandable if you have little knowledge of the discussion but, please dont be ignorant to post your reply as This place is to help promote shooting as a sport around the world.

This is my reply.

[snapy050]

Awesome dear Guest BRAINS people have!

[snapy050]

Well it all boils down to what your purpose of shooting is. If you are preparing for the next olympics, 365 days a year is also a shortage of time! If you are preparing for a local club match, then probbaly weekly 2wice would be sufficient. But let me give you a caution : SHOOTING IS ADDICTIVE !!! It dose'nt matter how many time you have shot before, But you always want to shoot again!

The absolute feel of the bullet leaving the rifle with that recoil gives you a kingly feeling! It feels dominant and strong! You just get so passionate about it that it hardly matters if you just shot yesterday.. You got to shoot again today!

Rajesh
Indian National Shooter

[Richard H]

Guys, what do you think - is is worthwhile to train each day or not? Personally, I feel that each day training ( about 2 to 3 hours) doesn't make any big sense because you look always a bit weary and see shooting like a routine and not a pleasure. What do you think?

Depends what your goals are. If you shoot for just fun at the club level then no if you really want to shoot world class then you better (5 to 6 days/ week) or you might aswell find something else to do that doesn't tax you so much. If you are that tired form shooting I suggest you have to work on some other areas such as physical conditioning and maybe better rest or nutrition.

[snapy050]

Hi guys,

I read somewhere about inventing a standing position.. It says you got to make a contact between your arms and the ribs, then where exactly does one have to put his elbow? should it be on the hip bone thats a little towards behind or exactly sideways thats the front of hip bone or on the muscle between stomach and hip bone? I am confused abou this.. If anyone has access to some info.. please specify the detailed method to a technically correct "standing" stance. Thanks in advance.

Rajesh.
Indian National shooter

[Richard H]

Hi guys,

I read somewhere about inventing a standing position.. It says you got to make a contact between your arms and the ribs, then where exactly does one have to put his elbow? should it be on the hip bone thats a little towards behind or exactly sideways thats the front of hip bone or on the muscle between stomach and hip bone? I am confused abou this.. If anyone has access to some info.. please specify the detailed method to a technically correct "standing" stance. Thanks in advance.

Rajesh.
Indian National shooter

Bone on bone is always best but this is not always possible. Anyone who says there is one right stance is not really the greatest person to be listening to. Do you have "The Ways of the Rifle" book there is lots of excellent information in there as to how to build a position. It also shows the many variations of position by many of the top shooters.